How can Businesses Tackle Bullying in the Workplace

Workplace bullying can be hard to detect, but unfortunately it does happen, and maybe a lot more than you may think, 30% of workers have direct experience being bullied in the workplace and an additional 19% have witnessed it.

Tune in to our new podcast episode 'How can businesses tackle bullying in the workplace' as Natalie from Beyond HR and Ewan discuss the importance of addressing bullying behaviour and maintaining positive employee wellbeing. 

Follow our social channels where we continue these conversations!

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Transcript

SPEAKER_00: 0:00

Hi, welcome back to the Recruitment and Beyond podcast. We've gone to a weekly episode now, so we're going to discuss all the challenges, the issues, the successes and so on that are going on in the HR department across the UK and further afield. So we thought we'd get ourselves on here weekly. So Natalie, good to see you. How's your week been?

SPEAKER_01: 0:24

Yeah, it's been good. It's Friday. Here we are again, as usual, isn't it? And yeah, it's been good. We were at the first Growth Summit in Scotland yesterday. So an excellent day. Claire Nelson of Scottish Netball was there. brilliant all about obviously being you and this is what today's all about well this is what our podcast is about aren't we disclaimer also and being our authentic self so um that was in terms of um yesterday was great all the different seminars and people that were there brilliant group um but also really powerful message in terms of being authentic both obviously in life but in the workplace businesses need everyone to be authentic so just the disclaimer for this this is our opinion this is our thoughts if you don't like them we want to hear what you how you disagree as well isn't it

SPEAKER_00: 1:13

absolutely I think that's exactly what we're trying to do and I you know we want to hear as many different opinions as we possibly can this is exactly this is going to be our take on what HR is happening what's happening in HR this week and if you disagree please get in touch drop your notes in the comments and we'll tackle that next time because the more opportunities we get to discuss these things the better so yes absolutely

SPEAKER_01: 1:36

and how's your week been what have you been up

SPEAKER_00: 1:38

to Wow, it's been a busy week actually, and I had a fantastic night last night. We were hosting an event for the Chartered Institute of Marketing on marketing in the metaverse, which was fascinating. When they do come to the UK, I'm going to get myself a set of Apple Vision Pro goggles. These things were amazing. I have to say, I've never done much in it, but... Oh, they're very cool there. You can link it up to your MacBook and your phone and you can do, you know, it's all with your hands here. Now you can do all this. It's amazing. It's very, oh yeah, it's going to be great. I'm looking forward to it. So it was a great night, a good discussion in Glasgow and I had a good bunch of marketers around to discuss how to take it forward. So no, been a busy week. Very good. So, Yeah, I mean, the hot topic over the last couple of weeks has been bullying, I guess, obviously around the news story around Christian Horner and the guys at Red Bull. Now, obviously, we're not going to comment too much on the individual aspects of that story, but it's in the press. People have been talking about it. We want to try and take some of these topics and discuss them and look at how HR departments can manage some of these issues that will probably come up in their teams as well. So, yeah, I guess I wanted to just look at, like, I suppose what... First of all, what steps do you put in place? What do you do when something like this comes around and you have an issue like this, whether it's a more senior person or a junior person who's having issues around bullying? Can you talk us through some of the steps that you might put in place and say, right, here's what we do. This is step one, step two, step three.

SPEAKER_01: 3:12

Absolutely. I think we need to be, we need to have first of all that, and we throw this word culture about so much, don't we? But it really is key at the moment. We need to make sure that people are happy and able to, not happy, that's not the base word, is it really? Comfortable and able to call these things out because actually we don't want all these things festering really. And if there is an issue, kind of business and organisation is based to know about it, to either agree, disagree, fix it, whatever, put some learnings in place, training, whatever that might look like. But actually, bringing it to the table is the best thing that can be done. There might just be the silent quitters that just say, oh, I've got a personal issue, I'm leaving, and they just go. That's no good for business. We need to know what the issues are. So getting that culture of it's okay to raise these things something will be done about it we'll take it seriously we'll go through the steps so first of all and that's a massive piece of work that's not really something that you can do overnight particularly if you're starting off in an unfavorable position of not having that culture so getting that fixed first of all getting that sorted and getting a clear process treating all parties right through that process as well and from the alleged as well sometimes we're too busy thinking about obviously the person that's making the allegations but also how do we protect the person that the allegations are against because in some type in a lot of occasions it's maybe not malice or not how anyone was ever intended it's maybe a behavioral or a training item but also protecting them as well but showing that things are happening and moving and any recommendations are discussed and shared so that the process is as transparent as possible. Obviously, you won't see everything that's going on in the process. You won't see all the depth and the detail, but making sure there's a clear process there. And things aren't just, and it happens everywhere, kind of thrown under the rug. Let's pretend we do not want that behaviour in the organisation. So let's pretend it just hasn't existed or doesn't exist. Let's call it out and let's deal with it. And that will be the best way that people will then start coming

SPEAKER_00: 5:19

and

SPEAKER_01: 5:20

telling. And also not just about, like, the chapter door is great, but what else are you doing throughout the year that gets people, gets their views? So from your engagement surveys, asking those particular questions, and it's not a case of are you being bullied, but certainly... cleverly worded questions that can give a business owner or senior leaders kind of a visage of what they're only there so far in the business aren't they and many times they're not seeing the nitty gritty of what's happening but if they can maybe see some commentary in terms of how it's feeling then absolutely or get someone external in to see sometimes you're just too far in it and you can't actually, or you don't want to believe it or you don't want to see it. You don't want to see what's happening there. So maybe getting someone else in to look at that for you as well.

SPEAKER_00: 6:09

Yeah. I suppose that was what I was going to ask is, is that a good approach? Actually, it's almost better to bring somebody independent and likes of, you know, beyond HR or anybody really to bring them in and to do that investigation because quite often you're too close to it, particularly if you're a senior leader in the organisation.

SPEAKER_01: 6:25

And it might be against you. It might be against someone in your peers that you just think, oh God, yeah, they do have a certain style and how do we, is that reasonable? Is it not reasonable? So maybe having an expert or someone that's dealing with the process every day of their life or can comment on best practice elsewhere as well, is sometimes a good move as well. And remember, we might tell you how it is, but it's down to the organisation whether you agree, you want to do something about it or not. It's only our recommendations. You are still absolutely the decision maker in terms of what you want to do or what you want to ignore or what you don't want to see is happening. But just in any business, that fresh pair of eyes is sometimes a good move, isn't it?

SPEAKER_00: 7:08

Yeah. Yeah, and I think you touched on it before about transparency, but actually... not owning it but I think every business makes mistakes everybody has problems everybody has issues and like you said you know you can't be across every aspect of your business all the time so things do happen so I suppose it goes back to using your surveys using your your insight getting that that that employee engagement I think we've talked about this quite a bit is that employee communication and discussion and keeping an eye on these sort of things so obviously the HR departments have been looking at that just providing insight to the board and to the to the organization to say Absolutely. We've seen a slight change, we've seen a slight development, and some of the more negative comments, do we have an issue? It's then about action, isn't it? I think quite often, like you said, we've had the reports back, we can see a slight change, that's fine, just brush it under the carpet. It's about action, isn't it? It's about acting on those things a bit quicker than perhaps letting them fester.

SPEAKER_01: 8:04

Yeah, and get the guys to tell you. Like, I've done quite a few focus groups and stuff as well, which is great. So getting a wee bit more meat on the bone, if the survey hasn't given you any of the specifics, then getting people in, not to tell about their story, because they might not want to do that, but what do they see, what do they hear in the organisation or business every day, and can they give you some further insight as to understanding a wee bit more of the issues as well is always nice, isn't it? Just to see what actually, what's happening, or it might just be one particular department, or... It might be one particular leader. It might not be the whole organisation, but that can face their way, can't it? Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 8:42

Yeah, I mean, it builds from there, doesn't it? And that issue where you've got one issue in one department perhaps leads on to other people and other teams, and the next thing you know, there's a bigger issue. So I guess just think about reputational damage and how you kind of manage these processes. I guess once it comes to the fore, it's about being open, and honest as much as you can, because obviously there's some confidential aspects to this, but you know, if you're a massive brand, then you're going to have to make sure that you can go out there and be honest with people and say, look, we're dealing with it. We're taking this on board. We're taking both sides, you know, thoughts on this and we are dealing with it. Is it important that you manage that communication to the broader company and then to the outside world as well?

SPEAKER_01: 9:27

Absolutely, and you probably have to get some experts in for that as well, because what you want to say might not be really legally what you should be saying, and I guess it's so hard, isn't it? The media jump on Like, businesses have grievances every day. There are cultural problems in a lot of businesses. Like, it's normal. It is normal, unfortunately. But the media will pick on large corporates and they'll jump on and everything will be in the paper. And how do they go about trying to protect their reputation? Because you don't want your service or your product being impacted on maybe something that's happening in one of the branches that might end up being unfounded, or in a lot of cases, maybe be blown out of proportion as well, or not be fixable. It can be fixed, remember, so it's very, very difficult, isn't it? That's where people have to engage in experts to see actually what is their flower line, what should they want to respond, are they able to respond as well, or should they just stay quiet and stay silent?

SPEAKER_00: 10:30

Yeah, I mean, I guess nobody wants to have bullying throughout their organisation and nobody wants to have that situation, but it does arise. So actually having that crisis comms plan, having that action plan in place, so actually that can give people a bit of... Security as well. It's to say, look, we have, here's our policy. We have an approach to bullying. You know, the bullying, and they don't need to see the crisis cause part, but the ability to be able to come to senior leaders and people in the organisation and just own up to it and say, you know, here's the step. Here's the process. I feel like I'm being bullied. It gives people the confidence. That's the sort of organisation you want to try and create, isn't it?

SPEAKER_01: 11:08

And the biggest thing at the moment is the word bullying is used a lot, isn't it? It's used a lot. Sometimes it's the only word because people don't know how to describe that behaviour, but it's really interesting to see is it unreasonable behaviour or is it bullying? And that's a lot of the work that we do throughout that process, actually. What's the person's kind of intention but what is the person how do they what is bullying to them how do they describe bullying and actually is that really the case or is it inappropriate behavior bullying and inappropriate behavior are two very very different things aren't they bullying is a very strong word and but as i said people use it because there's maybe not an alternative to use and they They describe their behaviour as that, but it might not be bullying. It's still unreasonable and it's still absolutely zero tolerance. But a lot of time is trying to navigate whether is it bullying or is it something else?

SPEAKER_00: 12:04

Do you think bullying is too strong a term then? Do you think bullying is too strong a term sometimes? Or is it, you know, like you say, there's different levels of this. So is there different levels of that where you can say, look, that classifies as bullying? Is that... are you finding that you mentioned that you're finding that quite a bit there's actually kind of differences in what people are describing to you

SPEAKER_01: 12:23

yeah absolutely and like i said it might be used wrong it's used interchangeably with a lot of other things that are happening

SPEAKER_00: 12:29

right

SPEAKER_01: 12:30

but sometimes people don't know other words maybe to use or But on the flip, they're very strong. And actually, that is what they believe. That is the word. And that's what they see the behavior as. So there's lots that goes into in terms of, is it bullying or is it inappropriate behavior or is it something else? All of them are as bad as each other, obviously. It's unacceptable regardless if it's bullying or not. It's still unacceptable behavior. But a lot goes around in terms of, I've been bullied. And then it's, right, let's get to the, let's really get to it. Are you being bullied or is it inappropriate behaviour in some other way, shape or form? Or is it even worse than bullying as well?

SPEAKER_00: 13:07

Yeah. Yeah. Well, yeah, absolutely. And, you know, as part of that process where you perhaps, you know, you guys are brought in as part of that investigation, do you find that there's, you know, people do tend to take the advice from you because it's independent you know they'll take on the advice and they'll take that a more robust approach whereas i mean obviously it's it's been highlighted that they've they've done an internal investigation if you if you like um at the red bull and manage that process internally is it is it better to have an external organization come in an independent organization to look at that and review it does it make it better for the obviously Hopefully there's a better outcome, but does it make it better for our brand to be able to manage that process?

SPEAKER_01: 13:51

I'm going to be biased, obviously. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But no, seriously, whether it's beyond HR or whatever else, sometimes you just can't see it because you're too far in. But also the time and the resource needed when we're going through a process. We're doing this as our job. Many people that are trying to deal with the process have many other hats on and will not give, I'll be brutally honest, will not give the process what it needs. We've got to show that we've been able to reasonably form some kinds of conclusion and recommendations. But if you've not really spoken to everybody, if you've not done everything that you've had to do, if you've not done the right questioning techniques, if you've not done all of the things that you have to do, really will you get to that reasonable outcome? And for many people, they're like, I cannot be bothered with this process. It needs done. It's serious. But I need someone in. And you don't have to take advice. Like, you don't. That's the joys of what we do. You don't have to take our advice.

SPEAKER_00: 14:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 14:51

We will provide recommendations, but you don't have to, you really don't have to take those if you don't agree with it. If you don't want to, if you want to do other things, we can work with you on how we maybe meet in the middle or what we do. But you don't have to take our advice. But an external is sometimes good because they have a view on many different things that are happening across industry and sectors at the same time and the level of experience with dealing with this day to day.

SPEAKER_00: 15:16

I guess I find that perhaps if you bring somebody independent in, you're more likely to get an honest answer from some people. Perhaps they might be more guarded if they're asked a question about senior leaders bullying them or people in a senior position giving them difficulties or challenging them. know they might be more honest and more open with someone who who you know they've never met before you know they might have that opportunity to really open up and tell people how israel and somebody who they know or who they may perceive will be going there to tell people and to tell senior leaders this is exactly what they said you know

SPEAKER_01: 15:50

yeah because i guess there's we're dealing with them as as people but we don't know their families we don't know we don't know any of that detail so it is a bit more black and white for us to make better decisions because we don't have all of that in the background going on so it is from that point of view it can sometimes help and that's maybe why we are brought in as well because I know that senior leader I can't really interview him there's conflict there or I know he's going through a really hard time and actually this is the last thing he needs and I don't want to be sat in front of him so no absolutely that might be another reason as well that could be

SPEAKER_00: 16:26

And not to get you to divulge any massive secrets, but do you find the outcome of these things, does it generally tend to be that someone has to move on or somebody leaves or something, or is there a bunch of situations where there is a resolution found and actually people go back and deal with it in a mature way?

SPEAKER_01: 16:49

Yeah, you'll be probably quite surprised. Really? If someone, a lot of the time, Feedback, the cheesy feedback's a gift, isn't it? Some people are very unaware of how their behaviour has actually caused someone to feel. So sometimes at the end of that process, we may have to go into mediation, get two people in a room, getting through it raising the roof like getting everything out on the table this is how you make me feel oh god and the person sometimes has no idea and sometimes at the end there's a different kind of perspective and then people can go back to work in some cases it's irreparable it's too late because we've just ignored it for so long so you can either there's lots of options whether you move people departments whether you sometimes if you're moving the alleged then that behavior will just manifest somewhere else won't it can move people about in some cases someone decides actually it's it's not worth it we're here once i love my job but i actually can go and do my job somewhere else remember people leave managers they don't leave jobs mainly yes managers so we always kind of have to remember that at times as well but there can be mediation there can be stubbornness though people might just accept that actually this is just the way I manage and this is my management style and tough. We get that as well, like that's tough. If we can get the parties in a room at the end of the process and then sometimes it blows up, tears, trauma and everything in between and then some people are able to move on and we just kind of monitor that relationship and make sure that it's still going the way that it maybe needs to go as well but there's lots of different twists and turns and kind of resolution and I think an organisation is always quite wary of saying Yes, there's been inappropriate behaviour, but sometimes there is, and it's better just to be dead honest and say, yes, but here's the 10 things we're going to do. We've really learned from this, and this is what we're going to do. That'll put you in the best place. You can sit and deny it, absolutely, if you're worried about it, but you might genuinely believe that it's not happening as well. You might genuinely believe it's just been blown out of proportion.

SPEAKER_00: 18:50

Yeah, yeah, no, absolutely. And I suppose as part of that, obviously there was a report out this week, I think it was this week anyway, from the Parliamentary Treasury Committee about HR departments and their role in I suppose what they called it, you know, protecting organisations, protecting reputation over dealing with wellbeing, dealing with harassment, dealing with issues that people have faced, particularly as they highlighted around sexual harassment in the organisations. And it was interesting to see that. And it's, I mean, to be honest, it's a bit of a scathing report on HR departments. So it'd be interesting to get your take on that and to see, you know, that's part of that whole process. It's part of that whole thing around bullying and harassment. So it's interesting to see what your thoughts were on that.

SPEAKER_01: 19:29

Blame us. Like, this is the classic. You're out and about. HR are rubbish. HR are this. And I'm like, can I just remind you? I feel quite strongly in this one. We are there for the support, the guidance. We are not the decision maker, remember? We are not the decision maker. You do not know what is happening behind the scene. HR might be saying, you need to do. You shouldn't be doing. But the manager at the senior leader team will do their own thing at times. So I feel quite strongly that we are in a scapegoat at times. But remember, processes, we're guiding the process. We're trying our bloody hardest at times to make sure we keep people on the straight and narrow, aren't

SPEAKER_00: 20:11

we?

SPEAKER_01: 20:12

But there are the gung-ho's approach of, that's great advice, but we're not taking it. So we need to be very careful that great HR is going to make a headline and bring it on, but actually... There's more seed beyond the HR department as well, and we try our damned hardest to keep people straight on the straight and narrow, but sometimes it can happen.

SPEAKER_00: 20:37

Yeah. I mean, there were some things that came out of that that did highlight, you know, be really positive. So things like a stronger protection for whistleblowers, which seems... Pretty good. And if you can do something like that. And then it was an interesting one around banning non-disclosure agreements. And I don't know the ins and outs of that, but it seems like something like that would be a benefit. And also the issues around almost having a legal requirement to have salary bans on job adverts. I know that from a recruiter's point of view, we're always suggesting that people put on the salary so people can make a realistic judgment of what the potential is. But actually... you know, having those salary bands, making that a legal requirement would really open up that process and hopefully start to move us away from this pay gap this year that still persists.

SPEAKER_01: 21:21

Absolutely. You probably look at questions every day in terms of do I have to put salary on? What are the benefits of it? And you probably see the success rate, I guess, with advertising the... salary versus not advertising the salary.

SPEAKER_00: 21:34

Absolutely. And I know that's definitely the case because, you know, how do people find jobs? They, you know, they're looking online, you know, that's the, all these elements add up to people being able to find the right job for them, because again, it's a decision based on salary, but also based on culture, based on various elements. So being able to find the right one and then, but, but actually more importantly, having that salary puts it out there that this is our organization. This is what we're willing to pay. And it doesn't matter who you are, you know, where you're coming from. This is what we want. anticipate the person who takes this job will get paid and I think that's really important and I think that's I suppose what's coming out from that you're right I mean the criticism of HR departments it's a really valid point that we're here to advise we'll give you advice we'll try our very best we'll suggest these are the approaches but people still have to make the decision don't they and I think that's the

SPEAKER_01: 22:21

amount of kind of like you laugh at this one like the amount of times where Like, you're just blamed. HR is blamed for loads of things. Oh, I'm sorry I had to sack you. HR was telling me I had to do it. Like, no, own your decision. Like, if that makes you feel better and sleep at night, fine. But we're there to help and support and guide you. We're not there to make the decision for you. So I do quite like seeing that media attention because I just want to stand up and go, no, absolutely not. I want to put it right out there because, yes, HR are there, but they maybe don't have the power that... decision makers are having. We're there to influence, guide, do all our good stuff that way. But in a lot of cases, the decision is not made by us.

SPEAKER_00: 23:05

It's not always made by HR. That's good. A lot of this comes back to culture. So just a couple of things to finish off with to help people to build that culture. I suppose a lot of this around avoiding bullying or trying to avoid bullying, obviously you can't always get it all the time, but is it about building the right culture? Is it about getting the right and open and transparent culture? Would that be

SPEAKER_01: 23:25

right? Absolutely. And sniff it out. Like if there's a... you might have a formal grievance on your desk but you might hear things like go and investigate get to the bottom of things before it manifests into something that it didn't have to be or it's a last job for people before they leave like if there's any kind of sniff going about from a couple of people in a survey although it's not the majority like what are you doing about it find out get to the court to find out what's happening and that's dead hard we know that but try and sniff out anything that's going on that you need to try and fix

SPEAKER_00: 24:01

yeah is that a challenging conversation to do that so i can understand if somebody says well it kind of seems like that might be happening but i'm not quite sure is that a challenging conversation or is there any hr issues around how you approach that i suppose there's good practice isn't there and saying listen

SPEAKER_01: 24:17

yeah you want your examples i mean people saying what i think is not like That's great, but it's a deeper dive, you think, but where are you getting that thought from? What are you seeing? What are you hearing? How are people behaving? How does the organisation work? All of that nice stuff to try and form a picture of, right, okay, do we have a problem here? Is it something just to keep an eye on as well? But that's the negative, like celebrate the good culture pieces as well. So, absolutely.

SPEAKER_00: 24:45

Brilliant. Well, listen, thank you very much for your time today. As ever, a good conversation, a good chat around that. And I know there's lots of discussion around this just now because it's on the news, but it's always a topic that comes up on a regular basis. So thank you very much for your time and I will see you next week. See you next

SPEAKER_01: 25:03

week. Have a good one.

SPEAKER_00: 25:04

Cheers.

SPEAKER_01: 25:09

Thanks, everyone, for listening today. Please get in touch if you want to find out more on today's subject.

SPEAKER_00: 25:15

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