Making the most of Maternity and Parental Leave | Season 2, Episode 6 | Recruitment and Beyond Podcast

Talent On Leave

Lynn White

In this episode, we tackle a critical but often overlooked aspect of talent management—how businesses can better support employees through maternity and parental leave. Our guest, Lynn White, is the founder of Talent on Leave, an organization dedicated to helping companies rethink how they approach leave policies, employee engagement, and return-to-work strategies.

Lynn shares her personal journey from a fast-paced marketing career into coaching and consulting, highlighting the challenges employees face during maternity and parental leave—from confidence dips to the difficulty of reintegration into the workplace. She discusses why companies often miss opportunities to support their employees during this transition and how a fresh approach can lead to better retention, engagement, and leadership development.

This conversation is packed with practical advice for HR leaders, managers, and employees, focusing on how to shift the narrative around leave from being a business challenge to an opportunity for growth. We explore the role of company culture, communication, and leadership in making the leave experience more positive and productive—not just for the individual but for the whole organization.

If you’re an employer, HR professional, or someone navigating parental leave yourself, this episode is a must-listen. Tune in for insights that could reshape how your business approaches leave and talent development.

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Transcript

Ewan (00:05):

Hi, and welcome to the Recruitment and Beyond podcast. My name's Ewan Anderson. I'm the marketing director here at Eden Scott. This is your essential guide to navigating the ever-changing world of human resources and recruitment. We chat with industry leading figures to give you the inside track on growing and developing the very best teams. Hi, welcome back to the Recruitment and Beyond podcast. Today we are joined by Lynn White, who is the founder of Talent on Leave. Lynn, great to have you with us.

Lynn (00:41):

Thanks for having me.

Ewan (00:43):

Well, I'm fascinated by this, actually, I wanted to really understand a little bit more about this topic, and it's all about improving, I suppose, the opportunities and the chances for businesses to make more of Aternity and parental leave and ensuring that their staff really fuel part of the organization and come back refreshed and invigorated. So yeah, do you want to give us some insight into your background and then just a little bit on how you got started with Talent on Leave? Okay,

Lynn (01:14):

I'll give you the abbreviated version. So my background was fairly unrelated, so I actually started in marketing. I left uni, ended up in London at a big ad agency, and I stayed in that world for 13, 14, maybe 15 years, something like that. So I was kind of client services and I always had an interest in the planning side of it, but in client services, you're pulling the campaigns together, which you'll be familiar with and I loved it. But I think the thing that I loved most about it at the time, I would've said it was the variety or two days were the same. But actually I think what always tickled me and intrigued me was why do people do what they do? How do we affect behavior change? And in particular, there were a couple of campaigns that I worked on which were about behavior change, whether it was sexual health improvement or bowel cancer awareness. There were a few different ones of that genre. And every time they come into the ages they're like, I'll do it, I'll do it. And I did love all of that. I kept on in that career until I was pregnant with my third baby. And that's kind of where the talent leave story begins, I think. So when I was pregnant with him, and this was back in 2015,

(02:40):

I just had the fear because I had been through having a baby twice, being in mat leave twice, and the dipping confidence and the disorientation of just what a different experience it is compared to everything I'd ever known. And even when I went on my second baby thinking, oh well, this'll be easier, it's just a different kind of tricky. And it was really out of that when I was having him. I thought there's got to be a better way to actually prepare for not just going on leave, not just professionally, but also personally. So the first time around, I had found it quite a shock to my system going from being quite an aight personality. The picture of ad agency, it's fast, it's fighting, it's attention to detail, it's go, go go. And being a little bit of a perfectionist into, oh my God, I actually am a complete beginner again and I can't control all of this. And no matter how hard I fight for a schedule, I can't actually get this baby into a routine. And it really took me down a notch. I was against a backdrop of not that much support, and I just remember feeling like, gosh, I've got family around me. What about people who don't?

(04:01):

And also that kind of sense of why are our expectations as professional, expecting parents built so high by the world around us and yet we're not really properly prepared for the reality which doesn't need to sink you, you just need to be prepared for it. So I had experienced postnatal anxiety the first time. I would say the second time it was more just like a general depletion. And therefore when I was pregnant with my third, I was like, right, we're doing this differently. So I actually bumped myself into coaching. I found a brilliant perinatal counselor and said, counseling's great. That's lovely. Can you actually be willing to coach at some point to mentor at some points? Because what I really want to do is learn about my personality, just grow myself awareness so that I can create a more intentional plan for the decisions that I'm going to be making both around my career, but also around what I want this leave experience to feel like and look like and play with the art of the possible instead of the threat of the inevitable.

(05:07):

And so that's what I did. And then just, wow, I returned to work. I really felt it had worked back to my job. By that point, I was freelancing as a consultant and then just had this little niggle to share the approach wider. A lot of peers and friends were getting other people to come and talk to me. I was helping them. And then I was thinking, yeah, actually if not now, what can this look like? So when Harry, who's the littlest turned one, I then launched myself into a whole bunch of training. I did all the perinatal trainings, so I did that. I did mental health, breastfeeding, all that stuff. But I also polished up and went and did an association for coaching for general coaching, emphasis on career and progression and outcome. And then I tied all that together into this approach which we now call talent on leave. And in 2019, I joined Epar Entrepreneurial Spark Time, and that's now subsequently moved to the RBS accelerator.

(06:17):

And so to be in a community like that where you're being encouraged and come on, do something with this, it's got to go somewhere. And I had a great coach at the time as well, Danielle McLeod, and they were all just saying, go before you're ready. You will never connect this to the level that you think it needs to be perfected. I think that old agency marketing part of me was like, it needs to be campaign ready. And it's like, just go not knowing exactly how the services are going to evolve, just get out there. And so that's what I did. And launched with an event very boldly, just invited a whole bunch of HR directors to an event which Pinton basins kindly hosted, gave me the space for, had a few speakers, told a bit of my story. And then from there, there were some just brilliant potential clients in there who put their hand up and said, let us evolve this with you.

(07:14):

Let's change the narrative. Who I'm delighted to say I still work with today, which is lovely, like five years old. Excellent. So yeah, so now Talent on Leave, the approach has evolved over the last few years into what I know tends to work well for various different size of companies. We will use it in different ways, but ultimately there are workshops for preparing for leave, preparing for return, and then return support as well as one-to-one coaching, which a lot of companies like for their senior talent who are on that kind of leadership track because I'm working with them monthly throughout their leave. And then some guys, sometimes we'll help a company take their policy and bring it to life a little bit and actually see what we can tackle through that, which means that if they do use coaching, it's not just as Anela class for something that was preventable.

Ewan (08:09):

Yeah, yeah. So do you think, I mean, just thinking of what you've just said there, and there's two sides to this I guess, but what is it that businesses are missing? Why do you think that they've never really looked at this properly? Is there a nervousness around this around being able to chat to people when they're on maternity or parental leave? Why are they missing the opportunities here?

Lynn (08:33):

I don't think it's intentional. And whilst fear does play a part, I don't think that's the initial driving force for what can look like inertia. And actually if you look at the number of companies all over the uk, but spotlight's a good share of them as well who are really investing in enhanced leave and really embracing working and looking at all the ways they can improve their practicalities. I think that one of the biggest things that's missing is just art of the possible. And some joined up thinking, one of the things that I remember when I started out and not being able to prove until I could start doing it to show people was that what happens before an in leave is just as important as what happens in return.

(09:24):

And that yes, the financials are important, but there are so many other hundreds of moments along the way that really, really matter, and you've got an opportunity to actually fight that tide of conditioning and stereotypes from a much earlier stage. And look, as humans, we're hardwired to go for what we're comfortable with and if the world scares us, this story of stereotypes and all this is what happens when you're a parent and this is what happens when you have an employee going on leave, then we're going to cl to that because it's all we know. And so when I started talking a lot about, and I think I actually put something in LinkedIn about this last week, is like if this was a leadership course, you guys, it would question absolute fortune.

(10:07):

The only trouble with it is it's delivered at such pace and under such intense circumstances, the likes that what's that program? SAS who do you, I think the pace and the intensity of it is like it's hard to integrate that without being really intentional about it. And so I think what they're missing is being able to see that it is a huge opportunity not just for someone to go out and add another dimension to their life, but also to transform some of those self-limiting behaviors and patterns that they may even had professionally and have been trying to improve for years before. Because you're suddenly in this intense period where you do need to have discernment and you do need to be clear on your problem solving. And you do need to understand the power of the pause and the difference between a reaction and a response and delegate and how to ask for help. And that's something senior talent who have come through a whole decade of school and university and everything's externally marked and it's external validation and suddenly you're in it and you have to find your own validation. Particularly in the uk, we don't have an awful lot of postnatal support in the uk, not the way we used to or the way we should.

(11:28):

So I think that's what's missing is just this sense of, well, what happens on leave is not really our business. I'm like, but it could be. And you don't actually have to go around and change an for that to happen.

Ewan (11:39):

Yeah, I guess. And so I suppose it is two sides as I mentioned on the other side, is there a big part of what you're doing here just to try and educate people to say when you go on maternity or parental leave, it doesn't mean it's the end. It doesn't mean it's to stop. It doesn't mean you stop engaging with your organization. Is there sometimes a bit of education for those that are on leave as well?

Lynn (12:02):

Absolutely. And I'm so glad you asked that. Somebody last week asked me about manager training and I had said, no. You said, why would you not do that? I'm like, well, actually, if you just think about mostly line managers, they're so busy firefighting and particularly in the climate we're in right now, just keeping things moving that has somebody to take time out their day or even over two days to be educated in the whole journey of lead, why to what end they're not going to remember. And if they do remember, they might not remember it exactly the right moment. And also how do we know what they're carrying around this whole topic because it's enormous.

(12:44):

So my view has always been, yes, there are things we can do to support managers. And I've done a few things like that, but not formal training. And that when it comes to the individual, that's where the power really lies. Because if you've got somebody, what is always absolutely blown my mind is that you can have this really brilliant, phenomenal, and I'm going to go with somebody female here, right? Because it's a gap and it remains a gap. But let's say you've got this brilliant senior female leader and she's going to be going on leave and she picks up the policy to have a wee look through what it's going to mean for her team, her manager, the rules, the dos, the don'ts, and you suddenly go from being this competent, high achieving all about town person to, oh my God, I'm a total hassle and oh, right, and I can do this and I can't do that. And you go from pilot to passenger.

(13:39):

And if there's one thing that I absolutely love doing whenever it's a workshop or a one-to-one is actually giving them the power back and being able to say, this isn't about a you versus your employer. This is actually about you being willing to speak up and ask for what you need and be willing to have conversations and don't just stick with the conversation plan that's set out by a policy because it doesn't know you. And it's so nuanced by individuals. So even if you can train a manager on the generalities, and it's the same reason I've never written a program or a login and follow my content because it's so nuanced to the individuals, everyone's journey

Ewan (14:22):

So different. Yeah, absolutely. And I suppose everybody approaches this differently as well, don't they? I mean having had our son and then listened to a lot of the feedback that you get, everybody's completely different as every child has. And so actually your approach to this has got to be individual, isn't it? You're absolutely right. It has to be an element of a policy that helps and guides and gives some suggestions, but it has to be an individual journey, doesn't it? And I suppose even just encouraging somebody to look at it differently, take a different approach to this is a key part of this, almost looking at somebody's psychology and saying, listen, we can help you point you in the right direction and give you some support here.

Lynn (15:04):

I think that's a really good point. And I think particularly because the way the world is does into almost playing a part when we go on leave, I'll often talk about archetypes and where and be like we have that option of going into victim mode, which I don't like that word, but maybe they will be me, right? We're going to make mode which is, oh, I'm going on leave. I better just follow all the rules and keep my head down and work really hard and do a great handover and just hope I've got a job when I come back hope they hope they don't forget about me. And then you've got warrior mode, which is right. I'm going to go in and I'm going to prove myself before I go and I'm going to make sure they don't forget me and I'm not handing that over until then, and I'm not stopping until this point, and actually I'm going to be keeping in touch at this level and I'm coming back after four months. I'm not waiting for a year because, so you can get these extremes. And then there's this kind more sage approach,

(15:58):

Which is, well, hang on one minute here, let's look at the bigger picture and what's the story I'm telling myself and actually what's that kind of shitty first draft of that story and how much of that is actually mine and how much of that's what the world's taught me to assume

(16:15):

And

(16:15):

Believe, and what am I projecting onto the people around me? What am I projecting onto my manager and onto my team and onto my employer about what is now inevitable? Rather than saying, well actually, what are the good questions to ask here and what's my truth? And can I go and say, tell myself a wee story here that you're going to forget me when I go and leave. How can I bring myself more personally into, right, well, let's talk about that and let's look at how we work with that. But it's about creating that environment for good conversation and helping people find their words.

Ewan (16:46):

Well, so I was just going to come around to that actually around communication and creating that environment where you feel like you can create whatever story you want, whatever scenario you want. And you're absolutely right here because it's such a personal thing. But suppose here it is around the balance between the employer and the employee and things like having the right policy in place or even just supporting managers to know how to support somebody to do that, almost leaving it to the employee to come to you and say, right, I'd like to structure it this way, like my maternity or parental leave to look like this because there's obviously a balance between professional and personal life here. And I think we would be mindful of that, but I suppose it's how do you create that scenario? And I guess a lot of it comes down to good communication, would that be right? I

Lynn (17:32):

Would say communications essential. And I think having boundaries is also important. Policies are there for a reason. And one of the things I'll often hear HR directors when we first start chatting is they'll say it's creating consistency across departments is really, you've got one manager who gets it and one who doesn't. And we're just trying to get everyone to stick to the rules fair. And I don't think that it's a case of saying that everyone's leave transition or everyone's return transition or everyone's keeping in touch, what that should look like should be the same. But I do think that there are sticks in the ground, you've got your way points, you've got the right, this is the general way we do things, but what is it that's flexible within that? So what's the trial and error opportunity that's there? And a lot of the time when people are asking for what they need, they're not asking for anything that goes against policy or that's going to overly compromise the company.

(18:36):

It's more about I just need you to hear me and I need to feel that I'm psychologically safe enough to interact with this policy and that whilst you're saying I can do this, that I'm not going to be penalized if I do. And actually from a return point of view, there are so many questions that people have about return that they don't want to ask. And the same with managers. Managers want to ask a whole load of stuff that they're scared to ask because they're like, what if I get it wrong? What if I say the wrong thing or unintentionally offend or they think I'm discriminating against them? But because everyone's got, like we talk about the glass ceiling, I think with leave there's this glass wall, I can see you and I can see your mouthing, but I can't really hear you properly so busy worrying about what I'm going to say next.

Ewan (19:21):

Is that the biggest challenge you come up against is that fear of what if I say something wrong? What if I get this wrong here? Is that from an employer's point of view? Would that be right?

Lynn (19:32):

Yeah, I think for on both sides

Ewan (19:36):

I

Lynn (19:36):

See it and that is fear-based. And that does come from what the world has taught us around discrimination and what will happen if, and it's become an experience that has been so, ified isn't a word, but it's been so legislated and however, at the expense of good communication. And I don't think managers need to have a script and I don't think they need to have intense training. I think they need to have two or three good coaching questions that they can ask on any given conversation in order to listen. And as long as there's an error of, I'm listening, you tell me your truth, I'll tell your mind, right, let's compromise and collaborate. How do we not just, here's the policy, but how do we interact with this policy

(20:26):

In

(20:27):

A way that works for both of us? And I think a lot of that comes back down to, again, we have got a lot of parents in the world. We can't pretend parenthood doesn't happen and we can't pretend that it's just a big expense to business because it's not. It does weap rewards.

(20:44):

However, I think we need to get to the narrative of do you know what the employer and employee relationship is always, it's always a trade. It's always that I am really looking forward to coming back to work and having prepared properly. Here's what I'm really looking forward to about coming back and here are the skills I'm looking forward to using. Again, here's what I think that could look like. What do you think it could look like so that we can do this in a way that feels like it's working for both of us? Because if that emotional engagement is not there for somebody returning particularly at a senior level when they're coming into a busy job, a busy life, again, what is the trade off? Because it's got to emotionally engage almost as much as that we want at home.

Ewan (21:33):

Yeah, I mean, not to play devil's advocate I guess, but on the flip side, is it the companies just need some structure around this. They need something that they need a kind of, because it is very individual and I completely understand why that's the case, but can you see how companies might need that structure to say, look, we need some kind of parameters in here. Is that or is it, is it a case where it really is dependent on the culture here and if the culture is such that people feel comfortable to have those discussions and we can have a more mature approach than somewhere where it's perhaps communication is not quite as strong or people don't feel as comfortable talking?

Lynn (22:11):

Yeah, I think it is both. One of the things that I have done with the guys, and I say I don't do loads and loads of them because they're quite involved, but one of the things we'll do with those is actually take the policy and the processes that the company have and actually weave that through with the kind of coaching content and guidance that takes it. Not just, here's everything you need to know about parental leave or here's everything need to know about what happens if you have a miscarriage. But we're actually putting it into an order in which somebody may experience this whole journey and we're pulling out the bits of policy and processes that are relevant and we're putting in the content that helps them feel good to know what conversations could I, should I be having, how might I have them both from a management perspective and also from the person experiencing labor return. So something as simple as that can make a huge difference.

(23:08):

It's almost like a saying, this is how we do things here. So there's that side of it. Yeah, you can have great policies, but how do you make them human? And equally, I've got people who can't afford enhanced policies. There's some SMEs that started joining into what I'm doing recently and I'm like, well, okay, let's work with what you can do. Let's see what is possible and let's see what the things are that aren't going to cost you a lot of money, but are going to have a huge impact on that person's experience and their engagement with you so that they can come back with energy.

Ewan (23:41):

Yeah, I mean that was one of the questions I was going to ask actually. Is this something that seen that works better with a larger organization with lots of structure and it allows people to feel comfortable coming back into that space or it works better in a smaller, more dynamic company where people communication is just part and parcel of what happens in the organization?

Lynn (24:03):

I think it works with both. I would say with maybe a smaller company, you might see the effect of it quicker

(24:13):

Because the ripple effect is so much more profound because it is rippling out more immediately. Other people, even from other parts of the business will feel it. There's always a ripple effect of this kind of work. And I would say within the corporate world where you've got much bigger departments, there are some companies I work with where I'm still meeting people and saying, oh my god, I didn't know we had you. That's amazing. And I've been working with them for three, four years. But it's just that the ripple effect maybe takes a little bit longer to go beyond just the management and the team and the department. So it can work for everyone. I think in terms of getting bang for your buckets about being clever, about where you actually feel the need. So like an SM e is more likely to want to support the conversation at that one-to-one level and the nuance, and they're strategically very dependent on that individual coming back with corporate, I do a lot more, I do a lot of one-to-one for talent level, but there will also be a lot of bespoke workshops. So we're building culture as much as we're building the knowledge and the behaviors.

Ewan (25:26):

That's greatly Thank you. Well listen, we'll be back after this short break. Do you get much feedback from those who don't have kids? Is there a bit of a, you talked about trade-offs, but is there a bit of resentment sometimes or is it generally, again, going back to the culture that whoever's leading that organization has created ensures that this can roll out without too much issue?

Lynn (25:54):

Yeah, so I think one of the most important outcomes of any of the ways we apply the approach will be that self-awareness creating in people.

(26:08):

And I don't think that that has to be limited to just the person taking leave or just the manager. I think that it's also possible to create some self-awareness in the wider team through your communications, through the signals you're sending out in your culture through the messages that you're giving to people about without, and this is where we've got to be careful. Sometimes I'll see on LinkedIn people talking about parents and we are this and we're that because of being on leave we're amazing and we can multitask and everything else. And I'm like, right, so can other people. I think what we're with non-parents, we've got to remember some of them are non-parents, not through choice. They will have had their own experiences. Some of them are through choice and that everybody will have their own reactions to member of their team going on leave based on a whole load of conditioning we can't see. And that can create a defensiveness. And again, it can have us go to those hardwired tendencies to look for all the evidence around why this is going to be a pain in the butt. But I do think we can create a more intentional dynamic around that.

(27:25):

And I think that it's about both the parent going on leave or returning knowing I am coming at this from quite a defensive viewpoint. Who do I want to be in this conversation? Who do I want to be in that handover with my team rather than going to that fight or flight reaction, which we're led to the world's taken us there. And the same for the team is being aware of really not a big fan of mat leave. It leaves me a lot of work. Well, how are we positioning that at a cultural level within the company and what message are they getting and do you know what everyone's experiencing that leave? Yes, the person going on leave and the manager are experiencing it way more intensely. The parent are without a doubt,

(28:11):

Absolutely.

(28:12):

But you've got all these team members left behind her are also experiencing leave. So what are we doing there and how are we helping it to become a chapter that they can thrive into?

Ewan (28:23):

Yeah. Yeah, no, and you made a really good point about that. And everybody just taking that ownership there and almost feeding that into the culture, the organization say everybody looks at this from that point of view, has a bit of self-awareness and really looks at this as an opportunity to try and develop the company, to build the company, to take every opportunity we can, then actually it creates a better scenario for everybody to get on.

Lynn (28:51):

Sorry, carry. You must see, obviously with the work that Eden Scott do, you must see this topic coming into conversations quite a lot around people using this as a moment where they think about, right, am I going back to that job or am I moving on? Or when they talent thinking about what's the message reward for that senior talent who maybe are likely to be thinking about family soon or have one already? Does that something that you see quite

Ewan (29:19):

Well? Yeah, I mean I think a lot of this comes back to culture and we do see, I mean we absolutely do. These conversations come up regularly. People are, I think different companies have different approaches, but I think certainly from a culture point of view, it almost comes back to communication, open communication and creating an environment where people feel comfortable to do that. Because I'll be honest, until I've spoken to you, I hadn't thought as in depth as we've gone into around this topic because I guess I had never looked at it in terms of the way you've described it in terms of that opportunity. And that's on me a hundred percent.

Lynn (30:03):

You're not alone, don't beat yourself up. That's not what we have been trained to believe or to see even. And I've got some incredible HR clients and I adore them and even they would say, you kind of know there's opportunity there, but you don't know quite to tap into it.

Ewan (30:25):

Well, I suppose that's where my earlier questions were around that nervousness because for twofold from my point of view is really understanding where the opportunity lies and secondly just understanding how to approach that opportunity. But you've laid it out in a really clear way to suggest that this comes from the employee to say, this is how I want this to look. And the employer being able to be in a position to say, okay, we can help you with that and actually that's going to help us both. We're both going to be in a great position when you come back to take on your role. So I think we

Lynn (30:55):

Can't, at least we are all aware of our choices because we all have choice and nobody needs to call out or leave company because they were scared to ask.

Ewan (31:07):

And I think creating that scenario where you're not scared to ask, and I mean I suppose it's an element of challenge here. It's a being able to see, look, I want to look at it this way. Can we sit and have a conversation about it? And again, as I say, it wasn't something that I think you put it really well at the start, we're all conditioned to think in a certain way because that's the way it's always been. And as I said, I hadn't thought about it from a talent on leave position, and it's really refreshing to have a think about that. I think there are definitely some people who will look at this and think, right, that's me. Am I going to go back into that job and do I want to go back into that job and take it as an opportunity? But I think there's some people who I feel quite nervous about going back in because they know they've got that balance of childcare and trying to find themselves back and find themselves in work again, because work goes on as well, things move on, things transition. And sometimes if communication is not as strong as it could be, then you miss out in a lot of that. So I think it's really important.

Lynn (32:14):

Exactly that. And what I'd really love to add to that point is a really common thing that will be asked when people are preparing for a turn. If I've not worked with them before and they'll be saying, I'm due to go back and I'm not sure if this is where I'm going back to. A lot of the time it's not about the practicalities, it's not about having the conversation around working hours or flexibility. It is often around role, but the biggest thing of all is often around I left that person, I'm now this person. Absolutely. And actually as I go back into this, is this still the right fit?

(32:55):

And it's not necessarily about the practicalities, it's about the values. It's about what really matters. And actually there's often a reflection on who I was before in my job. So you will get people, particularly in professional services where they have had really intense jobs, they've worked big hours, they got to where they got to being such over performers, and then they're saying, I don't know if it's going to be possible to have at all. And then we have these beautiful conversations around define it all, what is it all? And let's redefine that for you because you can't have it all. You can have your role, but how much of your role that you had before was based on made up stuff around what success looked like. And sometimes when you can catch people at that point, they realize it's not a new job I need, it's a new awareness around myself and how I show up and how I

Ewan (33:52):

Yeah, that's a really good point. It's a new awareness around who you are and what's important to you and where the values are. And I mean, I completely changed my approach. No, that's not true. I definitely changed my approach to work and obviously when we had our son, it completely changed the narrative and I wasn't sure if I was ready for that or not. But actually being able to have that conversation with the team and find well that they were quite comfortable with that and can help us along with that was great. And I think it completely changes the dynamic of the person, doesn't it? And it's really important to understand that, like you say, I was going to ask actually, has it changed with flexible work and has flexible working had an impact in this? Because a part of that coming back is support from colleagues sitting around the table having a coffee, just getting to know people again, which isn't as easy perhaps online.

Lynn (34:47):

Well, oh, I love this topic. How long do we have? Right? So flexible working. Has it got easier? I'll answer that part first. Yes. I think it is more and more a conversation point. People are less scared to ask. We know that. We know that it's what people want. The return to office mandates at the moment are really interesting

(35:11):

Because some of that you kind of wonder is that for appearance's sake, is it for keeping up with the jonesy and how much of it is based on actual genuine performance and productivity? Also that there are some levels that are more able to work remotely or to work hybrid because of the stage they're at in their careers. I would say most of the people that I work with actually really love hybrid. What happens is at least a couple of days in the week, they've got a little bit of time back in their day rather than constantly commuting.

(35:48):

That helps

(35:49):

Them do that over a functioning part out with their contracted hours. They're like that, right? And get that done. And that done, their focus is just like, they just get straight to it without thinking about the commute. But they do value going in and meeting with their colleagues. They do. And I don't think, certainly none of the senior talent I work with have got the view of I just want to work from home all the time.

Ewan (36:12):

No, no.

Lynn (36:14):

I'm interested to see how that changes over the next five, 10 years, different generations and what their expectations are.

Ewan (36:21):

So Lynn, tell us what does good look like? What does success look like in terms of this?

Lynn (36:26):

I think for a business good looks like intention. It's not burying your head in the sand and it is being more willing to look at leave without going and actually thinking, well actually if this was easier, what if this was an opportunity? What would that look like for our business? What could we reverse? What challenges are we seeing with leave? And how might we combat instead of just assuming we've just got to put up with it? Because that's just how it's, and I think when a company does that, you find the right formulas, maybe not quite the right word, but the right alchemy for your business where you've got a balance between policy and an actual lived experience and just enough elastic in that to create something consistent across business but still allow for person led conversations that even when you can't provide everything and employees looking for you are actually seeing their professional potential and you're making space for them to be able to come and bring it back. And I think I would say it's hard to do that without giving individuals this space to reflect on that for themselves. I would say that's probably what good looks like

(37:47):

From my perspective of what businesses should be doing. And I've got my we top three tips. I

Ewan (37:55):

I was just going to say yes, if you can give us your top three tips for businesses, which

Lynn (37:59):

It was hard to keep it to three. I would say the first thing is just to shift the narrative move from the old narrative's not working, it's not been working for decades. So let's move to a new narrative of what's the art of the possible,

(38:15):

How can we reframe our views of maternity and parental leave in our business? What are they right now? And be willing to look at how ugly they might be because we've all got 'em. My gosh, before I had kids, I had some ugly views around it. I'm quite ashamed of some of the conversations I had around part-timers, like good lord, right? I learned the hard way. Maybe that's why my first leave was tricky. It was like karma. But I think that be really honest about your current views and conditioning around leave question it and actually decide on what a new narrative could look like and at least experiment with it for the experimentation. It's like create an intentional approach. So really think about how you don't just build policy, but the individuals, how do you build people? How do you help them grow and harness that growth? And yes, the individuals, but also the managers and also the team that are going to be there and what the ripple effect is that you want. And through that your culture happens and your EVP improves. So say look at how you're bringing your intentions to life

(39:30):

And looking at that whole journey from career to leave and back and all the curve balls that can happen along the way, all the little alleyways. And then measure what you do try. Because one of the things that I wish I'd started right at the beginning of talent on leave was going into those companies and benchmarking and saying, right, give me what your progression rates look like. Please. Because the one thing I know we have done, but I didn't have their initial figures was not all of them, but the majority of the senior talent that come in, they've all been promoted, they're all progressing. Does it mean they don't struggle? No, because we're all human and we all have our struggles, but I think it comes back to that weebles wobble, but they don't fall down. And I think career confidence, and I can do this might wobble, but you won't fall down. The real beauty in all of this is being able to help everyone to carry, leave just a little bit more lightly. And I think going into working Parenthood and even now, there's some people that I'll work with who returned a year or two years ago and you're like, what the actual, and it's when you actually sit down and say, it's not necessarily all the plates you're spinning, it's the weight of emotion that you've got on each plate.

(40:49):

Yeah, that's a really good point.

(40:53):

And I think that when we can look at how we use that whole journey from career to leave and back about how do we stop those plates piling up? How do we stop the snowballing of that negative psychology of ourselves, of leave, of our prospects thereafter, then that can make a big difference. So benchmark, measure it and then have a, we look and see, well, what is the cost opportunity of this? Because what do we stand to lose? What do we stand to lose? The cost of attrition's fault between 13 a hundred depending on the level of the talent pilot is like fraction. And you get to decide what matters most and work on that and work on that and see, yeah, can you afford that leadership course?

Ewan (41:38):

Absolutely. That sounds great. And listen, thank you very much for your time today, Lynn. It's been a great discussion so much for having me. Really interesting. And as I said, it's completely changed my approach to this completely. Really. That's great. Yeah, doing some reading on this before and just really trying to understand that I think has really opened my eyes to, as you said, what is possible, what is possible here. I think check out those neuroscience maps. Absolutely. But thank you very much. So listen, if people want to find out a bit more, how can they get in touch with you?

Lynn (42:12):

I will pop you a little note for, there's some good stuff coming up in the second half of this year, some exciting new things, which if I start talking about now, we'll be here another hour. So I'll hold off on that. But there's that. And there's also a couple of the events that I have coming up as well. So if I send you a little link, then maybe you can add that to the transcript or something. Absolutely.

Ewan (42:36):

We'll put that in the show notes. Absolutely.

Lynn (42:38):

Please connect with me on LinkedIn. I love a good letter. And if there's anything that's come up that you think for your company you could do, then we have an hour chat on, I keep four half an hour chats aside every month just to do a little payback. So if you're looking at this and thinking we have no budget, or my manager will think this is fluff, but you want a 30 minute chat, you'll find all my details in LinkedIn.

Ewan (43:03):

Right. Brilliant. And we'll put them in the show notes as well. So thank you very much for your time, Lynn. That was great. Thank you. Thank

Lynn (43:08):

You so much. Thanks for making it comfy. Bye.

Ewan (43:10):

Thank you. Cheers. That's great. Thanks for listening to the Recruitment and Beyond podcast. Hopefully there was plenty of insight for you to take back to your teams, so don't forget to subscribe and never miss an episode. And if you can leave us a review, we really appreciate all the feedback and support we get. It makes a massive difference.