Building A Network | Season 2, Episode 10 | Recruitment and Beyond Podcast

How do you turn redundancy, a new mortgage, and zero HR experience into a 20-year journey at the heart of Scotland’s people profession?

In this milestone episode, we sit down with Lee Turner, founder of the HR Network, to explore how one man’s vision helped transform Scotland’s HR landscape. From humble beginnings to building an award-winning community of HR professionals, Lee shares the highs, the hurdles, and the human stories behind one of the most respected platforms in the sector.

Expect insights on:

• How Scotland’s HR community evolved over two decades
• Why local networks matter more than ever
• The real impact of celebrating success through authentic awards
• What the future holds for HR in an era of constant change

Whether you’re starting out in HR, leading at board level, or simply curious about how to build communities that last, this episode is packed with real stories, inspiration and practical wisdom.

💡 Key takeaway: “Networking isn't something you pick up and put down – it’s the secret ingredient for long-term success.”

Follow our social channels where we continue these conversations!

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Transcript

Ewan (00:05):

Hi, and welcome to the Recruitment and Beyond podcast. My name's Euan Anderson. I'm the marketing director here at Eden Scott. This is your essential guide to navigating the ever-changing world of human resources and recruitment. We chat with industry leading figures to give you the inside track on growing and developing the very best teams. Hi, welcome back to the Recruitment and Beyond podcast. We are joined today by Lee Turner, the founder of the HR Network. Lee, great to have you with us. Hi, Ian. Great to be here. Thanks very much for asking me to come on. No worries at all. It's great to have you here. So I mean, HR Network has been a critical part of the HR scene for a number of years now, but do you want to take us back to the beginning and what made you start the HR now? What inspired the whole process?

Lee (01:00):

What made me inspired? Well, I should probably start by saying we're celebrating 20 years this year. We've got a year of celebration that's already begun. We've started some events for the magazine, so we've got celebrations at every point. We've got umpteen events planned for the year, but 20 years. The official date, the company was incorporated in July, 2005, but the first ever magazine issued with the new arrival with the baby's head came out in the 1st of September. So we're celebrating that. So that's a big thing for it. A lot of it is vivid in my mind, but there's a lot of things that are not so vivid, wee bit grayer and longer in the tooth now. So the reason why I started, I had originally come from a really strong media marketing and advertising background in the retail sector. I then went into an ad agency for a wee while and then worked in a Scottish national newspaper.

(02:05):

So all the while I'm building a lot of commercial knowledge and expertise and a lot of connections as well as you can imagine. And I then ended up, prior to HR Network or a couple of roles before that, I ended up working in magazines for professional services. I didn't own the magazines, there were nothing to do with me, I just worked for them. But after a few years within the professional services area, the people that were running it had run into some financial difficulty and we were all made redundant and I had just got married and had a new house. We were talking about planning a family and everything. So we have what I've coined as another mouth to feed. So it was a bit of a scary situation. There was a recruiter, funnily enough, back in the day who was one of our key accounts in the magazine who had gotten to know and become quite friendly with, and they said to me, would you come in and have a wee chat with us? Because I'd worked in it. It was a legal magazine. So it was working essentially going into the recruitment world and the legal side. And I'd never done recruitment other than this magazine, never known much about the legal profession,

(03:33):

And I didn't particularly enjoy it. I take my hat off to everybody that's successful like you guys in recruitment because it's a job that it was never ever set for me. But when I went in, I was offered the chance to take on more of an HR desk rather than a legal desk. But I didn't know anything about, like I say, legal or HR or recruitment. It was all quite new. But what I did have with me Uen, was all the experience that I'd gained from the commercial world. So I looked at it through more of a commercial lens as far as marketing goes and advertising. And in order for me to be successful at that, I had to find how far I could reach. Having worked in a newspaper and realizing that reach was everything, what I actually discovered was that there was nothing specifically for HR people. We had a lot of people doing a lot of things for HR people, but nothing to my mind that was what I would call Scotland centric. We

(04:42):

Had national magazine titles that covered that were based in London, so very much geared for multinational organizations with thousands and thousands of members of staff. But in actual fact, Scotland as we know is very, very different to that. I mean, we've got some massive companies. I mean at the time we had RBS were based at gour and we had 150,000 members of staff. So it wasn't that we didn't know what large employee business was, but it was thin on the ground so to speak. And my infa became a bit of an infatuation was I was trying to promote the HR desk to HR people. And the only way that I could see that I could do that was to kind of in the nicest possible way, infiltrate what was already there. And so I set about this approach to try and find out who the movers and the shakers were as it were. And little did I know, but what I realized was in order to advertise roles, if you were advertising, say for instance in national title, it was massive cost because they had the audience to support the heavy cost that it would in these national titles.

(06:05):

But at the time, Scotland didn't attract the big employee salary always had a big difference between what they paid in London and what they paid in Edinburgh or Glasgow. So they weren't attracting a lot of people. And then I began to think, well, actually the community needs to be built from

Ewan (06:25):

Within.

Lee (06:26):

I wasn't having a great time in recruitment as I mentioned. So I set about looking at ways to try and create my own little platform. Now, I didn't do this with ego, I didn't do this with the intention of running over everybody. What I did was I approached some office bearers, if you like, for one of a better sort of reference, and said to them, what do you think it would look like if we had a magazine dedicated for Scotland? And I said to a couple of bodies that already had existing titles, if you regionalize what you are doing to Scotland,

(07:03):

You could really, really make a big difference here. And I think because of the numbers that we were talking about, Scotland was just a drop in the ocean to them because most of their people were London or some of the cities based. And so there was a very, very definite feeling that they weren't going to do that. And I thought, well, if we're not going to do that, I'm going to do this. Didn't like recruitment, needed to get out the recruitment, and that was really the catalyst. That's what set it off. If that explains it, I can't

Ewan (07:38):

Explain it. Yeah, no, absolutely. I mean, I guess it is touching on that, what you were just saying there around the opportunity that was there in Scotland. And I just wonder, was there a lot of collaboration within that HR network and that HR community back then when you saw that, was that almost the catalyst to say, you know what, there's lots of people here, there's lots of discussion. Or was it quite an isolated profession at that point? I mean, I'm just trying to work out where HR network fits into that whole community.

Lee (08:06):

So before I launched HR Network Magazine, I could see that there was, I didn't invent networking with HR in Scotland, and nor would I ever profess that. But what I did find was that there was a lot of siloed groups. So within the legal sector, I think they even had a network called the HR network and others. And that term comes up quite a bit. We stipulate a wee bit different. We've got a small R, which means that we're not the HR as the profession where HR is the community. So within hr, I guess within manufacturing, there was people that collaborated together. But what I couldn't see often was the ability for people to step out of say, public sector and come and mingle and collaborate with private sector, but realizing if I could put something that brought all of the sectors together to share experiences that perhaps maybe a local government would have that perhaps maybe one of the top banks wouldn't have and share that information. That was kind of what drove that.

Ewan (09:28):

So I mean, you've had a front row seat, I guess, for HR over the last few years, the last 20 years as the case may. So what are some of the biggest changes you've seen over the last 20 years that have really stood out to you?

Lee (09:43):

Well, I think there's huge changes. I mean, that particular question comes slightly further later on, but to answer the question where we are with technology, where we are with policy, where we are with just everything, people are becoming way more aware of their possibilities, their rights, everything has changed. But I think to take it back a wee bit, the scene, I think the scene that existed in HR in Scotland wasn't perhaps as dynamic as it is now. It was great, but it wasn't as dynamic. And as I say, technology played a vital part in all of that. We're way, way, way more dynamic in what that was. There was that somebody said it was Richard Branson, I'm not so sure, but it was the point where I saw it changing from my vantage point was it was the point where people said, your people in your organization are your most valuable asset.

(10:57):

And that's where there was almost, and that wasn't that long ago. We're talking 10, 12, 13 years ago. I mean, we've been going 20. So we were trending along for about five or six years after, let's just say it was Richard Branson that said it. And from that, I mean it was a critical quote. There was on a couple of others at the time, treat employees like they make a difference and they will. That was by a guy called Jim Goodnight, who was the founder of the SAS Institute. My actual personal favorite is to win the marketplace, you must first win the workplace. And these are all linked, they're all exactly the same. And that was from a guy called Douglas Conant, who was the former CEO of Campbell suits. They s their advertising, which is more my world. But in Scotland at the time, there was also a number of senior appointments around that time that came from other industry. So a couple of people from the banking industry and a couple of CEOs had of smaller organizations stepped into senior HR roles. And that just added to this whole profile enhancing of HR and where we were at the time, although relatively unknown, it was right at the start a really exciting journey as it transpired.

Ewan (12:16):

Yeah, yeah. Just to touch on that, you talked there about a few senior hires and so on, and we were on with Laura Smith from the NHS last a couple of weeks ago

(12:26):

Just talking about its the people function as opposed as well as the HR side of things being taken seriously at that more senior level. And I presume that's part of the change you've seen over the last 20 years is that, and the same from my background, from a marketing side of things, it's starting to be taken more seriously at the board level. It is a vital part of that process, and I think people have always been critical to any business. But now I think that with things like technology, HR and the people function has started to be taken seriously at that board level. Would that be the case? And is that something you've seen over the last few years?

Lee (13:00):

Yeah, totally, totally agree. And it was good points made by Laura. I saw our podcast, but in actual factors, for me, there was always this sort of cliche, it became a cliche. It was around they just wanted to be recognized at the top table. And that became the fight when an actual fact what HR needed to do was transform itself into something that became a viable strategic partner that brought value to the top. It doesn't matter if you're not at the top table, you will be at the top table if you are adding value because they won't be able to hold board meetings without you. And that was a mindset that I understood very, very early on. So the idea that we had was that we were looking to empower the HR profession. They were all well organized, well experienced people, but in actual fact they didn't in Scotland, they didn't necessarily have the voice, the HR network then magazine then came in and created and built a lot of profile around a lot of 'em.

(14:10):

So what you get is you get a lot of them now, a lot of the most senior people perhaps who have either moved on out of HR or are at the real higher echelons of HR these days are hugely grateful to us, to the magazine for being able to showcase the work that we're doing. And I always say that, I always say that I would like to think that over the 20 years that HR network has played, even if it's just a very small part in being able to assist in us now having a really vibrant, energetic, really proactive HR industry. And I'm really proud to be, as you say, I've got a front row seat. I certainly

Ewan (15:02):

Have. Yeah, I mean I think that's the thing, isn't it? So I sit the board of the Charter Institute of Marketing, and it's the same thing as creating opportunities for people to come and share that. So sometimes it can be a bit, I guess a bit lonely if you're a small market team or you're leading a small team or HR can often be quite a small team. And it's sharing those thoughts and those conversations because as people progress up that chain, and you're right, as you say, sometimes you're maybe not at the board level yet, but that function will be if you adapt, has that part of the community, has that helped to be able to share these ideas and share these concepts and share the challenges people have faced to get people to that level. Do you think, because it's not just the magazine, is it is that you touched on there, you put out some of the great work they're doing, but actually there's a whole community behind this as well in terms of your events and so on, that people can come and share these ideas with each other. Yeah,

Lee (15:58):

It's one thing them driving themselves to, we call it the greater good, greater good for everybody, greater good for their organization, greater good for their community.

(16:11):

And I think at this point in time, we've probably got the most amount of groups that want to nurture and develop and help support HR people. And I love that. That wasn't always the case. It was only us at one point. Now there were other people, but Scotland wasn't a focus. And I'd like to think that by taking that approach. And one of the things that I talk about a lot of is consistency and continuity. I could have built this for sale, I could have scaled this business right up and sold it after five years. I don't know what I would've been doing now, but we took a very sort of sustainable view of it all. And longevity for me now is absolutely everything because not just me, I mean not just the magazine rather, but me and the people around about me, my associates, my supporters, my readers we're in a place of trust. And when you talk about the events, it's not just what people are doing to create their own destiny and help develop their business and the people populations within them. It's allowing them to then come to our events, hosting events that allow them to come and collaborate and talk about these achievements with other people. And then that brings us in obviously to the awards.

(17:40):

The words is massive. You know it yourself and you've been around about it for a few years, and Ed and Scott are big supporters of it as well. Over the years, the feeling around the awards is just absolutely incredible. We have nearly 800 people come to the gala dinner of late November. We have 18 categories, most of which are sponsored or people are looking to sponsor them. And I think the appetite, there's been a bit of a backlash in the industries, all industries depending on who runs certain awards, but people are getting phoned up out of the blue and being told you, you've been put forward for an award now.

(18:27):

I mean, that's crazy. I mean, how would somebody know? But what we've got is we've got a process where the industry know exactly who we are. Yeah, exactly. They know who we are. They know what the awards stand for, they know that the awards are, it's not, I mean, we've got to run it. So we've got to generate some level of income to be able to run it. But it's not a moneymaking machine, it's not designed for that. It's designed to support and develop and celebrate the HR profession at the very best. And we have a completely independent group of judges who conduct the process with the utmost say every year, but the utmost integrity, credibility, transparency, we are not involved in it. We help run it, but we're not involved in the decision making process. And we can only guide, we can't influence. And I love the fact that we have no say in that because as I've said to the judges for many years, it's their reputations. These are all senior HR director level practitioners, either in practice currently or not long out of practice. And they do this process. They carry out this process purely and utterly professionally and with all the tools of transparency that we can ensure. And that's the success of it, the fact that we've got such a big event.

Ewan (20:03):

Yeah, a hundred percent. And I do think you're absolutely right. There's been some companies out there just telling people, oh, by the way, you've won an award now can you buy a table? And it is not about that. It's about, but there's real value in celebrating success and that we get a lot of feedback around just simple things like congratulating team members and so on at that team level can have a huge impact. So you can imagine if you have a really, as you say, an authentic set of awards where it's independently judged and people are rewarded for real good quality work, it's a massive thing. And it's a massive thing for your own professional development, your own professional pride. So having an awards that you can really count on has a impact. And it really does bring on the collection of the industry, doesn't it? The collective, I suppose.

Lee (20:54):

Yeah, absolutely. There's somebody that's just coming into my mind, I won't say who it is, but there's somebody that's been involved in the process, not only as a sponsor, but also as a finalist, a loser, a winner,

(21:09):

But ultimate somebody in the senior level of HR and really, really embraced it, really embraced the whole concept of it and the culture that it creates. And the irony was one of the biggest compliments that I ever realized with the awards you was that particular individual had said, who have you got coming along to the dinner? They were obviously going to be at the dinner. And he said to me, we have invited a whole load of our emerging leaders that have been doing really, really well on management development. Brilliant. And I thought that is somebody that is rewarding their people and bringing them to my dinner. And I was kind of choked up a wee bit because of it. Because when you actually, this is the point I'll make maybe a wee bit in a while about how I struggle to measure the impact that HR network has made. But when I hear something like that, I actually get a bit of a lump in my throat. The same person incidentally, whenever there was a winner of an award, we'd go out and offer a job to the winner of the award because they know that they were getting the very best. And that again, is another massive testament to the impact of what the HR Network magazine and the awards. And I can't forget my conference and my exhibition, that takes place in Murrayfield every May as well. And that's just another avenue as well.

Ewan (22:42):

Absolutely. And I guess that's part of it is obviously starting as a magazine and awards and so on, but there's a growth of a whole ecosystem there, I guess, that you're developing just to try and help and educate and help people develop. So tell us a little bit about the other aspects of the HR network.

Lee (22:59):

Well, the other aspect, the funny thing is we're talking about this 20th anniversary of the magazine, but next year I've got 20 years, almost 20 years of the awards and the year after, I've got 20 years of the conference. And then the year after that I've got, so we have, but what I've realized, what I actually realized at one point you, and we even had golf days, and the reason why I bring up the golf days was because there were certain people that maybe wouldn't go to a golf day, but others would go to a golf day, but maybe not the conference. And then what I was trying to do was to make sure, I didn't want anybody to say, well, I don't go to HR network, I don't play golf, or I don't go to HR network because I'm not really a conference scorer. But I think the critical thing for me here is not what we want, it's what they need. And it's that element of network. And so it's quite funny because you'll get some people that will just get involved in it,

Ewan (23:55):

All

Lee (23:56):

Other people that just dabble in different bits. I love that. I love the fact that, yeah, we've never been to the awards, but we go to the conference about fail. We'll have six keynote speakers, and the knowledge sharing on the day is just second to none. We've got exhibitors in the exhibitor area and we do all this sort of catering and the network, and they go, you can't hear yourself thinking because all this talk and chat that's going on. So you've got that. You've also got a wonderful group of events called R 40, which we just did one recently in the end of February, we worked with us on a particular partner who had some set requirements and we were able to deliver the set requirements. But it was an absolutely incredible evening, not least because the person that they invited to speak was just an absolutely wonderful speaker. And that just made for a brilliant night. So I have a senior discerning group of people coming in. And again, the events have to be well organized because if the events are not great, then how can you engage the people? That's great, Lee, thank you for

Ewan (25:13):

That. I think we'll take a quick break and we'll go back after this. And I mean the awards have been there, as you say, next year, 20 years, you'll have seen some inspiring stories. I guess. Is there any standouts for you in terms of over the last 20 years in terms of the awards? Oh,

Lee (25:34):

Like loads. There's some real tear jerkers as well. There's always a lot of emotion

(25:42):

Because particularly with the awards, we do a leader's dinner off the back of the conference, and that's always, and those in the HR 40 are very much like business dinners. Whereas for some reason the magic, if you like, I can only call it the magic of the gala dinner, what comes with, it's a lot of emotion. There's a lot of nervousness. People are nervous. And I think one of the things, I've said this to you before, it's not about HR network. The awards is never about HR network. It's certainly not about Lee Turner, I can assure you of that. It's around recognizing, acknowledging and celebrating the community that we have. And there are rules. We have rules of engagement. I don't know if you've ever heard about the rules around the noise because when you've got a low ceiling acoustically people, and there's a few of them on the other side of a glass of wine, it can be tricky.

(26:49):

And I think part of the challenge for us is that I meet so many people after November, between that November and the following, they say, oh, Lee, we absolutely love the gala dinner, but I wish you could do something about the noise. Well, I know how to behave myself at an large scale, trying not to cause an ble. But getting back to the question around the emotional thing, I'll give you an example. We had a, I'll say a local government company was up against one of the largest drinks companies in the world, headquartered in Scotland, but one of the largest drinks companies. And they were also up against, I mentioned them already, the largest bank, one of the largest banks in the world was headquartered in Scotland. And just by getting shortlisted in that group was enough for them. It was absolutely enough. And the person that was the connection with us made that abundantly clear how amazing that feeling was. They'd never thought they'd win it. They didn't think they had any right to win it. They were a local government. But the work they had done based on what the judging panel had discovered, the interview was phenomenal. And they went on and won it against the backdrop of two massive organizations with huge development budget.

(28:08):

And you could have scraped the gentleman off the floor when the company name is read out. So we've got that. We've also got, we always have a nod to, well, we've got outstanding contribution, which is a lovely award because that's an opportunity for HR network driven by HR network, but decided by the judging panel who deserves the recognition for quite simply an outstanding contribution to Scottish hr, which there are umpteen people in the frame every single year because some amazing work. And then the other nice very but very emotional aspect of that is that we have an award that's not presented every year, but sadly on occasion we will lose some from, we call 'em one of our own, from the industry who's perhaps passed and deserves recognition. We have what we call the spirit of HR award, which is a lovely nod to the contribution that they would've made more in a posthumous way than recognizing the work that they did, but recognizing the fact that they're no longer with us and that their absence has felt. So there's a lovely feeling about it, and we tried to do that. That's not indicative of just the awards gala dinner that is just indicative of the consistency and the levels of military style operation that goes into play every time you're doing an event. And we've become the known for it. But it is really, at the end of the day, it doesn't matter about any of it, as long as the HR community feel like they're part of something is a positive place to be.

Ewan (30:01):

And do you think, I mean, you've seen the last 20 years potentially of hr. What does the future look like? What does that look like for hr? Do you reckon? Obviously you're not a technical technically working within hr, but it'd be interesting just to get your thoughts on what HR might look like over the next few years and where we see it going.

Lee (30:22):

Yeah, so I probably should say for the record, I don't practice hr. I amm CIPD qualified incidentally, and I did that right at the beginning. I did that in the early days because of the role that I was taking on. So I am industry qualified yet that I don't practice it. The other funny thing is I probably have four to five conversations with senior HR directors every day or every second day of the week. So I think my CPD record must be up there because I think it's important to find out from them just what they need and what they want, but more importantly, what keeps them awake at night is one of the critical things. Well, that's exactly it.

(31:06):

And just knowing that. So what that does is that forms a lot of the themes in the magazine. So with us trying to listen wherever we can to what they're saying, we will then use that as a theme in the magazine and we'll try and tackle it head on. Where the profession is going is there's loads more challenges in HR today than there was 20 years ago. I feel that it's quite palpable. HR professionals are hugely adaptable, very capable, a wonderful profession. However, some of the biggest challenges I think they're facing is just the pace. It's like every other sector. It's the pace of things. Technology is driving it. So dare I need to say it, ai, one of the critical factors that comes up in a lot of the conversations I have, yes, that's the one thing that's keeping a few of them up late at night. It shifts so fast. But what you also have to remember is that we're now into a new government. And so what they were doing was again, that piece of change. They were preparing for stuff with a previous government and then the government, and it's not like they know exactly what's happened. They've got to go with what they know,

Ewan (32:34):

And

Lee (32:34):

Then the government changes and the government do a few U-turns and will have it. I'm not apolitical here actually, but they have to adjust now to that. They also have to adjust what's going on around the world without going into specific detail. But Ukraine is something on everybody's mind. I know that because of the volatility, the recent things in Washington I think are another factor, and not least some of the impact that we're going to feel coming either in the shorter term or the longer term, around 25% tariffs and things on exporting as well. There's loads, there's millions and national insurance. And I think it's just that. I think it's just the pace. It's the pace of change, and it's not just affecting HR people, it's affecting us all.

Ewan (33:29):

It's affecting us all. But the HR I always feel have a critical role because the people front, they're facing up to the people and the people are essentially what drives businesses. So helping them to understand and helping them to make it clear for their staff is really important because that communication is so important. So it can be a real challenge, I would imagine, for HR people to really understand what's coming down the track and then to be able to adapt and be ready for that coming and implementing that for your team. It can have such a knock on effect, productivity, culture, and morale right across the organization. It can have a huge impact, some of these macro things that are going on. So we tend to finish the podcast with just some advice for those that are listening in. And it'd be great to get your thoughts on maybe three pieces of advice for HR professionals, how they can develop their career, how you've seen it going over the last few years and where you see it going as you've mentioned. And then just how they can make that have that bigger impact within their organization. So maybe just some of your thoughts, three key things you think HR

Lee (34:37):

Profess. Yeah, so my first thing is make sure you come to our events.

Ewan (34:43):

Yes, absolutely.

Lee (34:44):

I'm not only kidding, but you know what? I think network. I think the biggest, I think based on the impact that I see that we are making, and that comes from, that's not us saying that that's coming from those that are engaged with us. That's people that are engaged with HR network and it'll come as no surprise to you. And that for me, networking

(35:10):

Is my ingredient for success. And I mean that in all honesty. I chuckle sometimes because some people, HR people and other professions, not just HR people think that networking is something that you pick up and you put down according to where you are at some stage in your life. And it doesn't work like that. If I gave you a very quick example, I was in a car park of a supermarket and I met a guy, this was years ago, we'd been working with a digital printer and things weren't going quite right. And I met this guy that I knew from years before and I said on a Saturday or a Sunday afternoon, and I said, what have you been up to? And he said, oh, I'm running this business. We do digital printing. And that point where I needed potentially to look at a new provider,

Ewan (36:00):

We

Lee (36:01):

Went on for about three or four years from that day and saved us a fortune in digital printing. And it's just because it was a Saturday, didn't mean to say that I wasn't switched on. I do it in my sleep. And

(36:16):

When I joke about people coming to our events, I really mean, I we're talking about coming as delegates. I mean, we're talking a small amount of money for a delegate to come along. They'll get six keynotes, they'll get a lovely lunch, they'll get refreshments in the morning. I mean, it's just a brilliant day. Networking, collaborating. And I guess the networking thing is where I'll spend most of my time advising people because when we go into something, somebody came to HR 14 dinner recently and they've been trying to get this person along to an event for a long senior person for a long time, and it just didn't seem the right time. And I got an email following day from this person to say, I'm so glad that I came because whilst I always felt that it was just the next thing I had to work out to try and do when I actually took the time to do it, the benefits have been enormous. I really, really mean that. And it opens their mind and their world up to just hearing what other people are doing and thinking lacking happen, and they create connections. So yeah, focusing on that,

Ewan (37:24):

I

Lee (37:24):

Think HR people going forward really is just about having networking at the forefront and not being scared to make a mistake. I mean, you're get a whole load of stuff, but hr, we're always seeing, I have this thing about TV programs where, oh, if you're not good, you're going to go to hr. Hr. When you see a TV drama, oh God, HR are coming in. I want to change that. I want to change that mindset. HR aren't there to police stuff and bring bad news. HR are a progressive group of professionals that really, if coming back to what Richard Branson said about investing in your people are your biggest asset. HR are there to protect the interests of the organization, but they're also there to protect the interests of each and of the employee. And that's what we should be celebrating. That's what we should be recognizing HR for, not this HR policer in town. It's unfair. It's completely unnecessary. Sorry, my tone's just changed a little bit there. We've got some magic, absolutely brilliant HR people in our industry. We are fortunate to have them, whether they are WIN awards or not, there is some amazing work going on in workplaces up and down the country, and it's rightfully getting called out and recognized for what should I hope that advice is. It's not really advice, but it's just how I feel about the industry that we're working. Absolutely.

Ewan (39:09):

No, listen, that's spot on and thank you very much for your time today. I really appreciate the discussion and it's been interesting just to find out about that. I think you're absolutely right. The core of any, the success of any kind of sector and growth in terms of skills and so on is about that networking and community and sharing ideas. Because the more you do that, the more we can all develop and deliver a better service, whatever, whether it's market or HR and so on. So Lee, thank you very much for your time today. It's been excellent and look forward to catching up with you at the awards or at the next event. It's

Lee (39:42):

Been an absolute pleasure you, it's great to see you, and I'll catch up with you soon. Thank you very much. Great care mate. All the best.

Ewan (39:55):

Thanks for listening to the Recruitment and Beyond podcast. Hopefully there was plenty of insight for you to take back to your teams, so don't forget to subscribe and never miss an episode. And if you can leave us a review, we really appreciate all the feedback and support we get. It makes a massive difference.