Season 3 - Episode 1 - Succession Planning with Graham Clarke

Welcome to Season Three of The Recruitment and Beyond Podcast!
In this opening episode, host Ewan Anderson, Marketing Director at Eden Scott, sits down with Graham Clarke, an experienced leadership coach who has worked with some of the world’s most recognised brands, including Mars, Diageo, and Britvic. Together, they dive into one of the most critical yet often overlooked aspects of business success: succession planning.

Why does succession planning matter? What happens when a key team member leaves, or gets promoted, and there’s no plan in place? Graham shares practical insights drawn from decades of experience, highlighting the ripple effects poor planning can have on performance, morale, and growth. You’ll learn why succession planning isn’t just about replacing roles, but about building resilience, fostering potential, and aligning talent strategy with long-term business goals.

Listeners will take away actionable steps for creating a proactive succession strategy, tips for identifying future leaders, and how HR can play a pivotal role in bridging performance and potential. Whether you’re scaling fast or navigating uncertain times, this episode offers a roadmap to keep your business agile, engaged, and ready for the future.

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Transcript

Ewan  (00:05):

Hi, and welcome to The Recruitment and Beyond Podcasts. My name's Ewan Anderson. I'm the marketing director here at Eden Scott. This is your essential guide to navigating the ever-changing world of human resources and recruitment. We chat with industry leading figures to give you the inside track on growing and developing the very best teams. Hi, welcome back to The Recruitment and Beyond Podcast. We are excited to be joined today by Graham Clark, leadership coach, who's worked with some of the biggest brands on the market, including the likes of Mars, Altimo, McQueen's gen. So yeah, really excited to have Graham here today. We're going to chat a little bit about succession planning, how important it is for businesses to really get a handle on this, how important it is for HR teams to try and guide that and develop that, just to have that continuity for businesses and to ensure that good service continues.

(01:01):

So Graham, great to have you with us.

Graham (01:03):

Pleasure. Nice to be here.

Ewan  (01:05):

So tell us just a little bit about you first. Just give us a bit of that illustrates career and just let us know where you've been and what sort of things you've been up to.

Graham (01:12):

Yeah. So I guess my pre-leadership coaching career splits into two. First 10 years, lots of big brands, as you mentioned, Mars, Diageo, Britvic, Allen, Demec, learning all some real of the best practice of the best companies out there, which is great for my education. And then the second 10 years working with companies like Ultimo, Brands International, the guys at MorphSuites, and then trying to find out what of that big company, BlueChap Excellence, actually fits into smaller businesses. And the last five years, I have been trying to help other clients do that as well because I started the coaching business about five years ago, about five years ago this week, in fact.

Ewan  (01:54):

Wow. So I guess as I mentioned today, we were just chatting about succession planning, but wanting to get a real handle on actually just the basics.What is succession planning and why is it critical? Why is that part of what you deliver to some of your coaching clients?

Graham (02:10):

Yeah, it's really, really important because often the biggest freeze or the biggest panic, the biggest pause in the development of a company is when a key person leaves because everything stops. And the idea behind succession planning, and it can be pretty basic stuff, is that you have a plan, the closing the title, for what happens when Emma leaves or when Dave leaves. And you really want to make sure you've tried and got this in place for all the key roles. And the key roles don't always have to be the big roles because if it's Dave that makes sure that the machinations of the company just tick over and all the importance get paid and all the bookings are made and all the clients get their updates, if he leaves, then who's going to do that? So there always needs to be a plan for the future and not just because Dave might leave, but Dave might get promoted and nothing worse, as we all know, and I'm sure quite a few people that end up calling the Eden Scott helpline are people that have been promoted and then get pulled back to their old job

(03:16):

Because nobody has made a role plan for who's going to backfill.

Ewan  (03:21):

Yeah. Yeah. That's interesting, isn't it, that the succession planning is always thought about as somebody leaving, actually, but that promotion part of it is really important. And quite often people seek a bit of comfort sometimes when they get pulled back into that role, don't they? And they think, "Well, actually, I know I can do that job. I'll get pulled back in. " And actually that has more of an impact because they're not taking that next step and doing what that next role involves, which is a key part of the development of the company, I guess.

Graham (03:51):

Yeah. There's a sort of three or four level negative effect in that. So I'm very excited. I've just been promoted. I've come home, I've told my friends and family, got this great new job, and then I have to go back and do the old job. And so now I'm pretty demotivated. And now all those cool meetings I was hoping to be in, I'm not in now. And I'm seeing there's a bit of reluctance to recruit for this other job because I'm doing quite a good job because I've been promoted because I'm quite good at what I do,

(04:19):

But

(04:19):

Now I'm doing two jobs and I don't feel I'm being rewarded for doing two jobs. And then I start looking up you guys on the internet because I don't feel valued.That's

Ewan  (04:32):

A challenge, isn't it? It's the small things that build up into bigger problems, aren't they? And when you start and you get that promotion, you think, right, okay, we're off and running, but they don't recruit and they don't bring somebody in. And that makes it a real challenge for you to get the progression you were looking for originally.

Graham (04:48):

Yeah. And even if you go to the other end of the company and say it's your sales marketing manager, a big senior role, Emma leaves, then people are pulled in to fill Emma's roles and tasks, go and see customers. And that means that those people are now super busy, but perhaps in a role that they're overstretching them and you're leaving their previous customers behind. So the whole company is working outside of their comfort and areas of expertise in order to fill this one role and it creates stress in the company, it creates disengagement in the company, and there is a distinct risk that that's the way ... And you can get away with it if you manage it really well and you've got greater management in place because offering someone the opportunity to step up, but it shouldn't be a surprise. The person should be ready to step up and have some experience of that role.

Ewan  (05:44):

So we've kind of talked quite broadly around the issues that come with that, but what are the risks of not having a succession strategy in place? If we can formalize some of them, what does that look like?

Graham (05:54):

Yeah. Yeah. And it is that ripple effect. I mean, if anyone is listening to this thinks about their own company, if a key person leaves, then firstly, there's a commercial risk because if this person is responsible for financial delivery, then there is a customer engagement risk because this is just sitting as a vacancy. So either a senior owner or a chief executive has to come down and cover that role, which means now the company's not being led and driven, or somebody has to step up from management level into the senior role and they don't have the experience. So now there's a risk of putting those customers off. And then somebody has to then come in and cover this role that I've just left. And now you've got possibly three, four, five, six people in the wrong role knowing they're not doing a great job. So the risk becomes pretty significant.

(06:46):

And often, sadly, a lot of companies are caught by surprise like, "Ah, they've left. Can't believe they've left. Can't believe they've handled their notice." Right, what should we do? But of course, we all know people leave. It's very rare now for someone to stay in a role for 10, 20 years and people move around.

Ewan  (07:10):

So what's that? You kind of touched on it, but what is that blind spot? What is it that companies don't get that catches them by surprise that says, "Oh my goodness, Brian, Emma, whoever has left, we didn't expect it.

Graham (07:24):

" Well, I think there's two connected blind spots. I think that the first blind spot is this bizarre optimistic reality that, ah, they'll never leave. He's been with me since the start. He's got chairs, but the surprise, surprise, at some point, for whatever reason, they leave and then we're in shock and then we go into panic mode, we have all these people covering and we have this potential ripple effect. The other blind spot is the, and this is quite an easy solution, is a bit of a lack of proactivity in making a succession plan. So, the best practice would be that there is somebody in place that if Emma chooses to leave or indeed is promoted, in order to allow her to be promoted, somebody is already kind of penciled in to take over her role, maybe getting a little bit of experience and do a couple of things, be a bit shadowing, maybe a champion role, so that instead of saying, "Oh my God, Emma has resigned," we say, "Ah, it's today that Emma's resigned.

(08:34):

Let's get the plan off we go.

Ewan  (08:38):

" So, what's HR's role? How can HR help with that in identifying or nurturing new talent or bringing them through? How can they support with that, I guess?

Graham (08:48):

I think they've got a huge role to play. The first thing they do, and it was shown to me by the HR team and my first company, Allied Demec, is making sure that the managers, the hiring managers, the leaders of the organization understand the difference between performance and potential because we all know that sometimes you could be really good at your job, you could do really good at complex accountancy. If you work in accounts company, maybe you're fast at doing tax, you really understand that you're great at doing the job, or you're really good at selling stuff, you were really good at selling chocolate or fizzy drinks. And so, then when there is either an opportunity to be promoted, a vacancy is created or a new role is created, then well, he was really good at selling stuff. She was really good at fixing problems for complex tax equations.

(09:45):

So, we'll promote them to be the manager of the sales team or the tax team, but they have firstly, potentially, no experience of being the manager. So, the skills required at that top role aren't there. And nobody has understood that it's not the performance of the old role that shows you whether or not you're good enough for the new role. You need to show potential that you might be good for that new role. So, what are the skills required for the new role? And have you shown me any examples of that? Are you good at talking to groups of people at a time? You've maybe shown that in a champion role that you have delivered. Are you comfortable under pressure? Are you quite good at instructing your peers? If you have done bits of these, then that is an example of you knowing the difference between potential and performance and that's really important.

(10:37):

I think the HR teams making sure they educate and train all hiring line managers and that I think would be really, really important.

Ewan  (10:45):

Yeah. I mean, I think it's just to touch on that, the way I see it, it's almost like a change in mindset is to say you're obviously hiring for the person to do that job, but I think it's actually having a stepping back and looking at a more strategic level and saying, "Look, we'll bring somebody else in to be that market manager. Perfect. But actually we need that person to come in with the skills to be able to be a market manager, but actually then we're looking for them to progress and in three, four years time, we're looking to step up to be associate director, director, whoever it might be. " And thinking about it then, rather than very at a basic level saying, "We need a market manager, let's bring them in. " And I think it's, is it about helping people to look at that strategy and think five years over the piece rather than thinking five minutes, oh my goodness, we need somebody to fill

Graham (11:36):

This role. That's right. And if it is the new reaction, Emily leaves, oh no, disaster, particularly if she's gone to a competitors, there's a medial and guarding lead, there's no handover, then you're looking at who's left in the company and you're thinking, and often we tend to, we think, well, who's performing really well, perform really well, potentially no evidence of how good they might be in the new role, and we stick them in and that might not be what they want. It might not be what they've got skills for. However, if there is already a plan in place, now that plan may well be that at some point we think that Emma's going to be promoted or Emma's going to leave. So who are the people that are in the company that have got to have expressed an interest in this new leadership role, this associate director role?

(12:22):

And have we given them the opportunity to test that out? Have we put them in front of groups of people internally? Have we put them in front of big customers? Have we had them write a bit of strategy and communicate it? Because that gives you an inkling as to what the potential is. Because what I always find fascinating is that as soon as you make the decision to go externally and come and speak to you guys,

(12:46):

They would never consider having somebody who's not got all of the roles, all of the strengths and experiences that required the new role. They would say, if you went to a client and said, "Well, this candidate has got no management experience, doesn't really like working with people, but they're really good at selling stuff. So would you like to hire them as your sales director?" And we would never accept that when we're looking at externally, but when we're looking internally, it's another blind spot, we sort of switch that off and we think, who can we put in? Who from the group that I've got can do this? And there's two bits to it. The first bit is, let's have a first thought as to who might that be, then let's create a development plan for them. Again, something that HR team can come in and do.

(13:32):

Let's test them, let's stretch them, let's give them opportunities to show their potential, but also let's have a secondary conversation, a longer term conversation with our recruitment partner because they may say that guy, Graham, he seems to be quite good at outline management business, we think, but he'll need to take some more time to develop. Maybe we want to put him on a training course. Maybe we want to give him an experience to do a little bit of maternity cover, a paternity cover to show us what he can do. But I also, if I'm in charge of this, I want to also have a conversation with an external recruiter to say, "We might need somebody in three months time. We don't think our guys are going to be ready by then." And so you want to try and loop in your external recruitment partners as far out in advance.

(14:15):

It doesn't mean you're saying, "Please go and get me a sales director saying that at some point we think this role's going to become available. Our goal is to fill it internally, but if it happens too fast, we need to come to

Ewan  (14:27):

You. " Yeah, then Alison, that's fascinating because I think it's also thinking about the people who are in the current roles. And I suppose there's a level of openness that you need to have with people to say, "Look, we're a thriving business. We want to make sure we continue to thrive. We are constantly looking at how we can develop, bring in great people. " We recognize there's probably a time limit on certain roles because we understand there's progression opportunities or there's other things that you want to move on to, but you've got that balance of people who run the company saying, "Well, we want people to be loyal here. We want them to stay here. We want them to grow with us." And I suppose there's a ... I don't know if you come across this mindset of saying, "Well, I don't want to have a succession plan because people will leave because they think we're expecting them to leave." And there's that nervousness to say, "Well, we have a plan, but I don't want to tell anybody about it.

(15:15):

" Because then they'll think, "Well, I'm only meant to be here three years and then I have to leave."

Graham (15:21):

Yeah, no, yes, it might be one of these unintended consequences that we sometimes stumble into from time to time. But yes, the flip of that would be, say I'd come in as a junior team member within even Scott. If I'd been working quite well and they'd seen I was quite good at my job, I was quite enjoying it. If I had had a succession of one-to-ones with my LEM manager and then had a written development plan saying that I could see potential roles in my future, now those roles could be, I want to keep doing the same thing I'm doing, but I want bigger clients and a bigger role. I don't want to get in management. I don't want that stuff. I don't want to do the office admin, then that becomes the opportunity for me to build my strengths and become a real job expert.

(16:06):

I think, well, actually, I'm better suited to managing people, so I'd be looking for an opportunity there. And having those open conversations about the future early, because there's not many businesses out there, if you had an open conversation with someone and said, "Actually, I really like my job. If you could help me become even more of a job expert, I'm going to be more valuable to you. You be able to pay me a little bit more, and it's a win-win." Often there is a title becomes very important, and the idea of being promoted becomes very important, but

Ewan  (16:39):

It's not always. Yeah. I mean, I think that's the tricky part for me with success and planning is, and it's so vital, but it is that open and honest conversation. And I think if you can foster that culture in your organization where, like you say, in your one-to-ones, there's a very open approach to, "Look, we want to try and help you develop. We hope you're passionate about the company, but we want to see you grow with us as opposed to we see you here for three years and then we'll see you out the door." I think it's that open and honest conversation, but also the strategy behind it to say, "We're going to be looking at this to make sure that we've got succession planning in behind you. " I think that's so vital, isn't it? I think that's the key here is the strategic mindset at the start, rather than trying to get it in to try and fix something with three months to go or two months ago or whatever it might be.

Graham (17:35):

And it allows you to be pretty proactive as an overly used phrase, but if you are working for a company that is growing, then hopefully you'll also be a company that will have a one, three, five-year plan. And in that one, three, five-year plan, you might go from having 10 employees to 18 employees. Now, you can't succession plan 10 into 18 because you need eight more, but succession plan into what roles are right for the individual, what roles do the individual show potential for? And then you can work with your external recruitment partner to fill the rest.

(18:08):

You don't automatically assume that the people who started the company with me when there was only three of us, that two of them will be the most senior people in the organization because they might not have the desire or the skills to do that. But layering the people behind the business plan with the help of the HR team, that's where you de- risk it. That's where that senior management team stress level starts to drop because when things start to happen, you're like, "Ah, right." So the sales are growing and we now see that in about six months are going to be the level where the current team can't cope. We don't have anybody in place showing potential or interest in the new role. Therefore, part of our plan, which we've already shared with the guys along the road, Eden Scott, are that we're now six months away from probably having a sales director.

(18:56):

So let's start the process, let's press the button on that.

Ewan  (18:59):

So

Graham (18:59):

Everybody has time to plan. So you get the right people and you have time to have the conversations.

Ewan  (19:04):

So Graham, I guess we've talked about people leaving, we've talked about people being promoted, but what about if you really are focused on growth? How do you build that plan for succession when you're ambitious to grow and you're thinking about another shop or another factory? What does that look like?

Graham (19:22):

Yes. And it's often the thing that gets forgotten about is that people will quite comfortably, you could have a conversation with a leadership team or an owner. Yeah, I'm going to get from four million to eight million or 20 million to 40 million. I can say, I'm going to get these, I can see how many customers I'm going to get. I'm going to say many more products I'm going to bring to the marketplace, but nearly always last, but often not at all is who are the people that are going to deliver this for me Because if I'm already quite busy, I can't go and talk to twice as many customers because I'm already full. So we need to make sure as you plan the business growth, it's absolutely critical that you think who is going to deliver that growth? Is that a new role within the organization?

(20:12):

Is that a more senior role within the organization or is that just an additional role? I now need, instead of sales team UK and I need sales team North and sales team South or I need sales team UK, sales team Europe, and I need multi-channel sales delivery guys. So making sure that who is going to do it is important as how big the number's going to be. We often get caught up on how big the number's going to be because that's how we're going to get our funding and that's how we're going to write our business plan. The bank's going to be happy. It's going to say we're going to grow to 35 million pounds. Don't forget about the people. And then your succession planning kind of behind a role that doesn't exist yet.

Ewan  (20:50):

Yeah. Why do you think people miss that? I think that people part of it is, is it because it's, I mean, it's not tangible, that's not the right phrase, but because it is harder to plan. It is harder to work out, I'm going to need a new salesperson in six months. Is it hard? That planning, is that a more challenging role or is it just that ... I mean, it takes you six months to build a factory or whatever it might be, and we know we need to be hitting our numbers at that time. Is it more difficult to plan out people, I guess?

Graham (21:22):

Yeah. I think that when you're writing your plan, I think often people will work on right, what can we do in the next three months? And that's what we focus on. We talk about building and then at some point then we think we need more people and then we're into that knee-jerk reaction. Whereas what I recommend with clients is we say, right, currently your business turns over 10 million pounds a year. We've done a little bit of brainstorming and blue sky thinking and everything. At some point in the future, your business might turn over 20 million pounds. So let's now design a business that turns over 20 million pounds. Currently you've got one factory. We think, how many do you need? Two. That's two factories. So people, how many more people? Double, trouble, more. And then you work out how many more people do you need, but then also what are the roles of those people?

(22:14):

And because you have doubled your business, do you now need some more senior people? Do you now need international people? And getting that conversation straight at the same time as products and locations is really, really important

(22:29):

Because then what you can then do is you then think, well, we can't succession plan to double the size of our business. So we need to go and speak to an external recruitment partner and say that in three years time, we are going to have a sales team of an extra 20 people. Now, we don't want to recruit ourselves in bankruptcy. So how do we work together and make a long, slow plan to build the team so that I'm not coming to you and saying, quick, I need two sales guys because you guys wouldn't like that, but I guess you hear it quite a lot. Where I say, look, in a year's time, I want to have somebody start in my business or three people start my business in December 2026, this sort of level, this sort of skillset, this sort of experience, let's start working towards that now.

(23:18):

We can always pause it if the growth doesn't come and nobody's committing to anything this far out, but I think that sort of thinking is going to be better for everybody and less panicky.

Ewan  (23:30):

So let's get away bit practical in this sense. So what are some practical steps or some of the smaller businesses in the UK, for instance, that just need to put some planning in place and understand what their strategy should look like?

Graham (23:42):

Yeah. Now this is completely stolen. And I can even remember the name of the HR manager that showed me this is Leslie Dixon back at Allied Demec. She's now running people at Pizza Express, but she was great and what she did and it was a wonderful delivery. We wrote up, I was an area manager for Allied Mec at the time. So I ran 14, 15 pubs. And in pubs, you've got manager, deputy manager, chef, there are the three important ones. So you've got lots of post-it notes, big posts and not day. We write up the name of the pub, Brewery, manager title, deputy manager title, head chef title, and then the names of the people who are the encompass, people who are doing it. And we did that and those of us who had a full compliment of staff then stood back and went, "We're good.

(24:31):

Look at that. " Then Leslie says, "For each individual person, what happens? Who does their job tomorrow if they leave today?" And that question, who does their job tomorrow if leave today? Right, okay. Right. So the manager leaves, deputy manager becomes manager, who becomes deputy and now you've got another layer of posting notes to put in place. So a really simple system and a really simple ... If you did that twice a year

(25:01):

With a growing company where you think you might need some more pubs or with your existing company, you're assuming that people might leave, it's so powerful. And then yes, whack it in the spreadsheet or do Google Block if you want, but starting off with those post-it notes that you can move around and work out where people go, it starts to, because there's a ripple effect, but it's one you plan for. So when the manager of the brewery and leaves, you don't go, "Oh no, quick. We need an agency to help us. We need to do this. We need to do that. " We think, "Ah, that's good." Dave, remember I told you six months ago that if John left, you would go in and then Donna, one of our head supervisors, you now get the opportunity to be a deputy manager and you might end up recruiting somebody down at the very lowest level because everybody else has shifted up, but everybody knew it was coming.

(25:54):

They don't know when, but that's the plan. And that's the most powerful but simplest and kind of fun way of doing things I've seen before.

Ewan  (26:03):

Is that the potential issue with this is that, and that sounds spot on, but you say to somebody in a one-to-one, "Look, we see this happening over the next six months. Can't guarantee anything, but this is the way it may well happen." Is there any negativity to that that, "Look, in six months, this person hasn't left, what's happening here?" Or is it, it's just an unintended consequence of the fact you're trying to train people to be better at their job, to be able to do the job up. And actually it's not a bad thing, it's not a bad scenario because then that deputy manager might leave if the manager doesn't move on, they're in a good place to be able to do that. And you've got someone who's coming in behind them because you've been training the other members of staff to be able to do that as well.

(26:46):

Is there any negativity in having that open conversation with someone to say, "Look, this is the plan, but it may or may not

Graham (26:54):

Happen." If you're brave and really impressive, the conversation you can have is, right, you're one of our deputy managers, we see you with potential to become a manager in the future, therefore we're going to give you this extra resource, extra training, you're going to cover off days and we're going to build a plan for you to be ready to step in like that. We understand though that you want to be, because you've told us, we've asked you in a nice coaching format, we've not told you that you have to be any general manager. You've told me you want to become the general manager, and we know that if six months we don't have a vaccine for you, you might leave, but we're going to train you for that anyway. So you're going to get all that same training. And if we can help you, and if you're really impressive, you say, "I'll put you in touch with other businesses that we know from our network and we'll try and find your role outside the business." Because I don't need to panic about that because I've got my succession plan.

Ewan  (27:46):

Yeah. And that's secret, isn't it? And that's the thing is that it's been brave enough to say, "Look, this is a conversation we'll have. We've got our succession planning, we've got a session plan there and we're comfortable with that conversation." I think that's a really impressive, I think that's a really important way to do it is to have those. Again, it goes back to a lot of these things, innovations driven by open conversations that the success of most businesses circles around good communication, good, clear communications, isn't it?

Graham (28:15):

And it is. And of course, if the business is growing, then the stagnation at the top won't happen because you're opening your next pub or you've got your next three customers, you need a new salesperson and you can need a new account manager or you need whatever it needs to be. If the business is growing and thriving, then you're in good shape.

Ewan  (28:34):

And I suppose at this time, when the market is as it is, resilience is a real key part of this, isn't it? Because you've got to have that strategy to bring people in and ensure that you're bringing the right people in who are resilient to be able to flex with the business up and down. So you do obviously a big part of your role is coaching. So how do we bring coaching into that to develop the individuals and develop the strategy for the whole organization?

Graham (29:03):

Yeah. So I talked a little bit about the business scaffolding and getting that in place.

(29:07):

And you put that in place in such a way that even if you deliver an average one-to-one, you're still delivering a one-to-one. But if you really want to be good, then you want to provide your leaders who are having these one-to-ones with a little bit of experience of asking great coaching questions because when I'm trying to work out if somebody is able to do a future role, if I ask them some great questions, then I can start to find out what their potential is. For example, say we've created a business and we're selling into France for the first time. Nobody in the organization has ever sold anything to France. However, the person that I'm having the one-to-one with has actually sold things into Ireland before. So now I'm going to start asking them rather than telling them, or, "Do you think you can sell to France?" So tell me a little bit about when you sold to our Ireland, what were your first steps?

(30:01):

So all these great coaching questions to find out what was the process they ran through, and then you're finding this transferable skill. You think, I wonder what would it take to put that sort of process in place in France?

(30:13):

And so you're doing two things. You're finding out if they've got the transferable skill and the potential to do it, but you're also building the confidence. Because that's the other part of the importance of coaching within these one-to-one conversations is positive reinforcement. Because with these new roles coming down the track, with these new products coming down the track, we don't quite know what we're going to face. But if my boss has sat down with me and reminded me through asking me, remember that tough thing that you had to get through, that you got through, tell me a little bit about that. How did you do that? What did that feel like? I'm being reminded that actually when curveballs come towards me, it kind of goes okay. Handle it. That then builds my confidence and resilience is really confidence plus experience. And because when you don't have resilience, you're panicked, you're scared.

(31:04):

I don't know what to do. And you're showing examples of lacking resilience. But if somebody was going to say, hang on a minute, you do know what to do because you've kind of done this before. Let's just look at the things you've done before that have gone well. So it's similar, isn't

Ewan  (31:20):

It? That coaching part of it is having the faith to believe in that. I think that's really important is for organizations to really trust in that process that ask the right questions, you will build not an invisible resilience, but you will build people who can deal with that as you say. When the curveball comes at you, you've built that resilience, you've built that strength to say, "I've asked the right questions. We know that they've got that mindset that says, I can handle it when it

Graham (31:46):

Comes." And it also allows a very positive, unintended consequence, which is something I try and get all of my clients to do that when a curveball comes in and their number two comes running to them and says, "Oh, I've got a curveball." They can then say quite empathetically and comfortably, "Oh, what do you think we should do?

(32:04):

"

(32:05):

Which means that they don't take it on, which means they are not taking that monkey management aspect of all the different complicated parts of the business. They're empowered. They might need to remind them that you are empowered, you've done this before, you're good. And so you can just ask them, "What do you think we should do? You're as good as this as anybody else in this business. Why don't you decide?" I can help you get there by doing a little bit of coaching, a little bit of situational leadership. Let's do a bit of positive challenge and see if we can together own the best practice. But giving your leaders the skillset to do that, giving them some practice, giving them some feedback, letting the HR teams teach them and train them on this will, I think it will belt embraces. You've got your business scaffolding and other big coaching skills should work out well.

Ewan  (32:54):

Exactly. So if we're looking at this as an ongoing plan, and obviously most plans come with objectives and so on. So what sort of indicators, what are we looking at in terms of metrics to make sure that our succession plans working, I guess? I mean, there's probably quite an obvious one in that there's somebody to fill the job, but I presume there's other things around that that you look at.

Graham (33:15):

Yeah, because you can do, even if you just do that post-no exercise and you do that twice a year, you do that quarterly. I think Mars called it an associate development review and ADR. But every single team had a full day, once or twice a year. So it's a really, really ... If you think you can do it in an hour, you're not valuing your teams very much and you're not being a great leader. So it's complicated because you've got every team, you've got five or six different scenarios, and then there's going to be a cross-team effect. So you can put that in place as something that will happen in the future. The measure of has it worked is really important because you will certainly have, I hope, good metrics and measures for somebody moving into a new and senior role. They'll have their KPIs.

(34:09):

You're supposed to wash 10 cars a week and how many cars have you washed and how well have you done it? And all those normal measures that most businesses have. The risk is you can hide behind the numbers. I can take over a team and the team's just really good.

(34:25):

And so I sort of sit back, puff my chest out because I'm washing 10 cars a week and the plan was only seven and I feel great. But if we're only looking at the numbers, what you've not found is that my team is getting grumpier and grumpier because I suck as a leader. So we have to measure leadership. We have to measure attitudes and behaviors. So we have to have some sort of analysis of how good a coach am I being? How good a leader am I being? How engaged are my team? And then when I'm having my one-to-one with my boss, I want my boss to ask me, can you give me some examples of where you have led the team individually? And as a group, I'm looking for examples of the potential now being realized. If I just look at the numbers, I've spoken to a few clients in the last few years where the numbers were good and only when the numbers start falling off, you lift the bonnet a little bit and you're like,

(35:24):

Oh,

(35:25):

Nobody likes your boss. The boss isn't having one-to-ones. The boss is taking all the credit and passing all the blame for any wallets. You've got to get in and assess the things that will drive the resilience, that will drive the engagement, that will drive the culture, and it's all about leaders.

Ewan  (35:43):

Yeah. Yeah. And I guess that takes us quite nicely onto some of the common mistakes you've probably come across similarly, as you say, maybe not just focusing on the numbers and not really getting to understand what's underneath the bonnet, what's really happening. So is there any mistakes you've come across, any kind of calm mistakes that some of our listeners could look out for in their succession planning?

Graham (36:05):

There's a couple of phrases you would want to listen out for. I mentioned one earlier, "Oh yeah, that's Emma. She's been with me from the start." Or, "That's Dave, he's locked in, he's got his share options. That's fine." None of these things matter if they become disengaged and somebody comes along and offers them a nicer job with a better environment where they're going to feel more looked after. So it is making the assumption that just because someone's been here for a while or you think of that sort of person, they won't leave because normally that means that you're not paying the same attention to them because they're just ticking along, so you're kind of ignoring them. So that would be a concern. The other concern, the watch out for anybody thinking about this for their own organization is to watch out with what I would term the senior manager misery.

(36:59):

And I first experienced this a while back when what you've got is you've got the owners of the company doing owner things and they're getting all the benefits of being the owner of the company. They're getting paid well, they're having success, a bit of notoriety, but they're also comfortable making decisions. They've got authority and autonomy to do that. Then there is the general team, the larger body of the community within the organization, and they are looked after by these senior middle managers. So what can happen is the company looks good and the performance is good because the majority of the team are doing a good job because they're being motivated by these senior middle managers and the total performance is good and it's noticed by the company owners, but therefore you have this blind spot for this middle level. The guys are actually running the machine, the guys that are driving the car for you, if you don't check in on them even more regularly and motivate them, because they seem to be doing sometimes as much work as the owners or the C-suite guys in the organization, but not quite with the same benefits, not quite with the same audits or credit, but they're doing a hell of a job of motivating the troops.

(38:20):

Sometimes making a slightly broken car work really well. So that would be another watch-up.

Ewan  (38:26):

Okay. Okay. And are there any frameworks, or I know you touched on before in terms of post-its and so on, but are there any frameworks or tools that you would suggest for building the succession plan?

Graham (38:41):

Yes. It's something that I, and it's not a single tool. I would make sure that you would build what I call business scaffolding around

(38:54):

Each

(38:54):

Of the individuals in your team. And what I say about business scaffolding is the structures to allow people to move around safely and operate within your business. So is there a structured team meeting with key actions and updates? Is the communication from top down and bottom up in place? Does everybody have a one-to-one on a monthly basis? Does everybody have a personal development plan so you know what they like, what they don't like, what they want to, what they want to do, do they want to be promoted, do they not? And what are their external training acquired? So if you put these structures in place and now you know that there are one-to-ones happening, there is this development review happening, which means if I know I've got a one-to-one happening and I've got to report to my boss how that one-to-one went, I'm going to ask them about what they're enjoying, what they're not enjoying, where do they see the development.

(39:45):

Now I'm kind of forced to do all these things. If I'm going along to a development review for the whole team, I'm kind of forced to get that job done, which means that it starts to become second nature within an organization.

(40:00):

So the succession planning just kind of has to happen because there's checks and balances in place.

Ewan  (40:06):

So I think just lastly there, I think there's a bit of crossover here in terms of the culture and actually, where does this come from? Does this come from leadership down or from the team up? Where does this fit in and how do you embed it within your culture? Because I think a lot of it comes down to that communication, but how else do we embed that in there?

Graham (40:28):

Yeah. So there needs to be a decision at senior level, either at HR director level or C-suite level or owner level that this is important. Now, I can tell you that if you have this conversation straight after a senior person leaves and they have a four or five month gap, maybe they have a mishire, then it's going to be really important then. And if you make the suggestion, well, why don't we build it into one-to-ones? Why don't we make sure we have a six-monthly people review looking at potential as well as performance? Yes, let's do that. Whereas if things are going okay, then I think things are fine. We can normally find people if we need them. Things in the past have gone, okay, that tends to be when you can trip yourself up and fall in the pothole. So there has to be a decision made by the senior team, the directors, the ownership of the business, that this is important.

(41:22):

And by putting this in place, two or three things will happen. I, as an individual, will become more engaged. My employer value proposition will go up because people will say, "What's it like to work over at Graham when you incorporated?" "Oh, it's great. After three weeks, I got this plan and I was given experience in other roles so I could understand where I wanted to get to. That gave me a chance to have a discussion about a future role or to become a job expert. Never seen that before. That's great.

(41:52):

"So it's complex to do, but it's not complicated.

Ewan  (41:56):

I think the succession plan is actually broader than that, isn't it? It's actually about your own personal development. It's about creating an organization where people grow as individuals. Obviously there's a business benefit here and the succession planning so that businesses can continue to operate at the level that they want to, but it's also very much about that culture of growth, that culture of development that you really want to foster. Because again, this isn't about getting people out the door. It's about an opportunity for them to progress and develop. And as your business grows, as you pointed out there, your team grow and they want to do that.

Graham (42:28):

Yeah. And of course, with a growing company, then you need to do succession planning for a role that may not yet exist. So you may have a sales team and you may outsource some marketing, but at some point, once you've taken your business from two million to eight million, you might need a sales and marketing director. But in your plan, your one, three, five-year business plan, it says that's going to be in 14 months. So in the next six months, is anybody in the mid-level team showing you examples that could be them. Now that might stop you giving some money, Dean and Scott, so I apologize for that. But it means that if you've got to have that discussion and have that open and honest conversation with everybody to find out, do they have the potential? Are they ready to make that step just yet?

(43:16):

Have they shown you the evidence of that? If not, then we go externally.

Ewan  (43:21):

Yeah. Yeah. And I think just lastly on this, and this wasn't obviously one of our questions, but it's interesting now that the jobs over the next five years, a number of them, we don't even know what they are. There isn't a definition for them yet. So it's actually having that open mindset now and having that mindset that says we're going to evolve as the market evolves, but we're going to make sure that we've got the right people with the right mindset as supposed to develop with the company so that roles will change. The implementation of technology is going to have an impact on jobs. So have we got the right people who can adapt to that? And that's part of your succession planning as well, presumably.

Graham (43:58):

Yeah. And it's the sort of things that if you worked in bigger corporate jobs, they would often have companies who would assess you on competencies. And sometimes if it's a bit wishy-washy, do I have drive for results? How am I dealing with ambiguity? All these things that felt a bit loose and weird, but now actually, as you say, because we don't know what the future ... So when there is an AI convergence development manager in three years time or three weeks, if I've been having these conversations and maybe looked at it, what are my strengths? What are my areas of development? What am I really good at? What do I like to do? Whether it's an official set of competencies that I'm assessed against, or it's just great conversations. Then when this new wacky world appears ahead of us, we think, well, actually we've got some people who have shown that sort of attention to detail, creativity, blue sky thinking, because we've tested it, we've asked them about it.

(44:56):

So we'll be as ready as we can be for these jobs that no one has done before.

Ewan  (45:02):

Yeah. And I think that's as much as people can do is just be prepared with the right mindset throughout the company because nobody's got a crystal ball and can't predict what's coming down the line. But no, listen, that was a really fascinating discussion. I wondered if you had maybe three top tips that you could maybe give out for the listeners just to say, look, if you're looking at your own succession planning, here are three things I'd focus on.

Graham (45:27):

Yeah. Buy some post-it notes, Nick, Leslie's, then just do that. Do it on your own. If you're the MD or the chief sector, just see what it looks like. But the power comes when you do it across the whole organization. So do that and include some gentle version of a development plan in your one-to-ones. Oh, actually, have one-to-ones. If you're not having one-to-ones each month with actions that come out the side of them, then there's an opportunity there anyway. But if you can also start to include, maybe not in everyone, but maybe once a quarter there's a developmental conversation. Where do you see this role developing? If you could only ever do this role, how big could you make it? Or what's your enjoyment level of this role? What other roles in the organization do you think you would really like to do if we assumed you'd have the skills to do them in the future?

(46:24):

Have those sorts of conversations because then you'll start to learn more about your teams, which is always a good thing. You'll start to learn about what they like and what they don't like, and you start to learn what they're good at and what they want to become good at as well. And that just gives you a great background without buying into anything too techy, without doing anything too complex. And worst case, if you don't need anything from a succession planning perspective, your team engagement will jump by 10, 20%.

Ewan  (46:53):

Yeah. Brilliant. Well, listen, thank you very much for your time today, Graham. Where's best for people if they want to get in touch and just even have a chat about succession planning or anything to do with coaching and so where it's best to try and get in touch with you.

Graham (47:07):

Yeah. So the best way would be probably through LinkedIn or in my email, which I'll put in one of the comments

Ewan  (47:16):

Below this. Yeah, we'll put it in the notes below, but that's brilliant. Thank you very much for your time today, Graham, and I'm sure we'll catch up soon.

Graham (47:21):

Fascinating. Thanks, Sharon.

Ewan  (47:29):

Thanks for listening to Recruitment and Beyond Podcast. Hopefully there was plenty of insight for you to take back to your teams. So don't forget to subscribe and never miss an episode. And if you can, leave us a review. We really appreciate all the feedback and support we get. It makes a massive difference.