S3E10 - Building Better Businesses with Jayne Saywell

What does it mean to build a successful business while considering the impact on people, communities and the environment?

In this episode of Recruitment and Beyond, Ewan Anderson is joined by Jayne Saywell, sustainability consultant and founder of Black Skies Blue, to discuss the growing role of B Corp certification and why sustainability is becoming a key business consideration rather than a standalone initiative.

Drawing on her background in banking, accountancy and sustainability, Jayne explains how businesses can move beyond treating ESG as a tick-box exercise and instead use it to better understand risks, opportunities and long-term growth. She also shares insight into Edinburgh B Corp 500, an initiative aiming to create a thriving network of purpose-driven businesses across the city.

The conversation explores why sustainability is increasingly becoming a commercial issue, how organisations can embed it into everyday decision-making, and the role finance professionals are playing as reporting requirements continue to evolve. Jayne also highlights the connection between employee engagement, retention, governance and business performance, and explains why building a better business does not have to come at the expense of growth.

Whether you're a business leader, finance professional or simply interested in how organisations can create lasting impact, this episode offers practical advice on where to start and how small changes can lead to meaningful results.

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Transcript

Ewan Anderson (00:04):

Hi, welcome back to the Recruitment and Beyond Podcast. We are joined today by Jane Saywell, who is from Edinburgh B Corp 500 and also from Black Skies Blue. Jane, great to have you with us.

Jayne Saywell (00:16):

Lovely to be here, Ewan. Thanks

Ewan Anderson (00:18):

For having me. Yeah, no, listen, I'm quite interested to talk about this today because it's such a. I don't know that enough people know about B Corp and the sustainability and the ESG element of this and how important it is to companies, but actually the transition about who's taking responsibility for this sort of stuff and where it lies within the organization. I thought it'd be great to get you in and just have a bit of a discussion because I know there's a range of different. You wear a number of different hats in this scenario and it'd be great to understand what they are and then we can go in and have a bit of a chat about B Corp. Would that work?

Jayne Saywell (00:49):

That sounds great.

Ewan Anderson (00:50):

Good stuff. Well, yeah, tell us a little bit about yourself, Jane, and your role and your background.

Jayne Saywell (00:55):

Oh, goodness. Right. Okay. Well, that can take up the next 40 minutes to mention. So my name, as you know, is Jane, and I have a small consultancy here in Edinburgh called Black Skies Blue. That comes out of a banking. I've worked many years in banking, a banking meeting we used to have called a Black Skies Meeting, which no one wanted to go to. They bring out your dead, what could go wrong? And someone said, "Let's turn these Black Skies Blue." So that's where the name comes from. Good. And we do sustainability consultancy. We do strategy work, we do trading with accountants, and we do B Corp certification. Now my other hat, I volunteer with a fantastic charity based in Edinburgh called Edinburgh Cannes B. And one of our many initiatives is the Edinburgh B Corp 500 program where our ambition is to have 500 B Corps in Edinburgh by 2030.

(01:44):

I can tell you lots about

Ewan Anderson (01:46):

That. Wow. Okay. But I mean, your career started in accountancy and you now work in sustainability and system change. So how are those two worlds connected? How did we get there?

Jayne Saywell (01:56):

It's not that mad. It really isn't. So I am a management accountant by trade. Now management accountants are used to working and dealing with things and measuring things that aren't just money. We create balanced scorecards. They're balanced. They're also looking at HR stats. They're also looking at operational stats. That hasn't changed. So I started off as a management accountant. I got into banking. I got into leverage finance particularly, and that's when I had a bit of a moment because I was an equal warrior at the weekend and picking up the money during the week. And there was a disconnect there. So then I went back to study environmental economics and then came into banking again, but specifically within risk with a real interest in climate risk. No job in climate risk because they didn't exist then. But slowly, slowly made my way through. And as the regulations started to change, I was able to bring that much more to life towards the end of my career in banking.

(02:54):

And then eventually I came out to do it all by myself.

Ewan Anderson (02:57):

Wow. So as a consultant, and obviously been through a number of different opportunities to study this as well, what do businesses get wrong in terms of sustainability and that kind of future readiness? What are they getting wrong?

Jayne Saywell (03:10):

Well, that's a really interesting question, Ewan, because it is changing. And you alluded to that in your introduction as well. As the regulatory and the legislation environment changes and as the disclosures, both mandatory and voluntary start to really mature, we're really seeing a shift in how people approach this. And so it's gone from being an add-on. Now, if you make this an add-on, it is sitting somewhere else. It is way, way, way down your priority list. And then you're not using it. You're not using it to understand your risks. You're not using it to understand your opportunities and really embedding it into just who you are and who you are. So back to that balanced scorecard part, I think if we can all just quite frankly calm down a bit and take our politics out of it and just see sustainability issues as other risks and opportunities, then that's where you really start to see some value happening.

Ewan Anderson (04:02):

Right. And I suppose the value transition, that's what it's all about, isn't it? It's ensuring that there's. Because nobody takes on any of these things without there being some kind of benefit to the organization and then to the wider community. And I think that's the balance that's there. And I suppose introducing this concept of Enbra B Corp 500, I'm interested to find what it all means. So for people hearing about it for the first time, what are you trying to achieve with this? Right.

Jayne Saywell (04:29):

Well, why don't I take a step back and explain what a B Corp is? Because

(04:33):

They've got fantastic market recognition in the consumer market, but not everybody really knows what it is. So a B Corp or B Corp certification is a standard. It's a fantastic standard. It's a rigorous standard and it is looking at your ESG. It's looking at governance, it's looking at environment, and it's looking at people. Now what's interesting about this, because there are lots of standards that do that out there. What's interesting about B Corp in particular is that it's incredibly rigorous. It's third party assured now. Assurance is probably the wrong word for an accountant's perspective. Vertified would be better. And the really thing that drew me to it is it requires every company that holds that certification to make a change to their articles of association, to their governing documents. So legally, therefore you've then built something and you've absolutely baked it in that says, "When I make a decision, I'm going to consider people and planet alongside profit." It doesn't say you have to land one way or the other.

(05:34):

It's just broadening that decision-making mechanism.

Ewan Anderson (05:36):

Okay. Okay.

Jayne Saywell (05:37):

So that's what a B Corp is. And it's hard. Not everyone can be a B Corp, and that's fine. It's absolutely fine. What we're interested in is how that then changes the dial in the business environment.

Ewan Anderson (05:47):

Yeah. Okay.

Jayne Saywell (05:48):

Yeah. So they're also B Lab UK behind B Corp is really interesting because they also are behind the Better Business Act, which is changing company's house to make that just the norm for every company. Why wouldn't you consider people on planet? That's what a B Corp is. ENBRA B Corp 500 is a response to how we can make a change in Enbra. Now Edbrah, and I'm going to shamelessly steal somebody else's stats from S6. 28,000 people earn less than the real living wage in Edinburgh. If we're looking at employment stats in particular, 15,000 people in work still rely on universal credit. We have problems of environmental degradation. We have problems of social inequalities. The charity I was talking about in Canberra looks at that and then looks at all the different levers they can pull. One of them is business. So we had a bash.

(06:39):

We pulled some levers. We tried a program called an impact program. No one was buying, quite frankly, back in the day. A couple of people came on. It was lovely. But nothing was really coming out of that. And then we got back to the drawing board. Enbra and API did a bit of research for us. And it was actually someone from the third sector, because it's a really cross-sector organization in my country, said, look, why can't we just make everyone a B Corp? If they were all B Corps, then I wouldn't have to deal with inmark poverty that I'm having to deal with. So that idea came to life and then it just exploded because B Lab are brilliant at marketing. Their recognition for the B Corp certification is really high. The stats they have, the researcher have are great. There's a commercial reason then for people to put it higher up the priority list, to come along and to get certified.

(07:29):

So that's when things started to explode. And we have some fantastic partners, people like the Enbrel Chambers that we work with to talk to their businesses as well, which has made all the difference. Do

Ewan Anderson (07:40):

You think people make that connection? So you talked there about obviously there's a sustainability element and then there's a human element to this, but obviously you mentioned the number of people who are employed but below the living wage. Do you think they make that connection? Do they see that link? Because ESG is all of that, isn't it? And maybe people don't see that and they almost see if I'm paying people more money here, I can't afford to do the work in terms of sustainability and so on. Is there a balance there that they just don't feel they can strike?

Jayne Saywell (08:11):

Massively. Of course there is. If you're talking particularly about, we're talking about Endra here. So if you look at the tourism industry, paying the real living wage is a huge barrier. That is really, really hard. So that's where I find this standard particularly interesting because it recognizes that. Yes, it wants everyone to be paying the real living wage. You commit to doing that at some point, you have a plan to get there. But in the meantime, you can be building in other things that don't necessarily cost money. You can be looking at things like how do we make sure our shifts are fair, that we are giving you notification of when your shift is and you can cancel, legal cancel. So there's a lot that actually is really aligned to the fair work principles of the Scottish government and EMBA Council as well. So there is always a balance in there.

(08:57):

And that's why I like the certification. It's tough, it's rigorous, not everyone can get to it, but there is flexibility in there. So you can grow into this over five years.

Ewan Anderson (09:08):

Yeah. And you talk about B Corp being, or you talk about it being a tool rather than end goal. It's a process, isn't it? It's a process to ensure that as an organization you operate, you have the right standards. Is that right? Is that what it's used for or should be used for?

Jayne Saywell (09:24):

Absolutely. Listen, it's completely free. As long as you don't want that badge, because it costs them to put you through verification. As long as you don't want that badge, the tool's completely free and anyone can sign up and just use it as a framework. And I would recommend doing that as a first step actually. Okay.

Ewan Anderson (09:40):

Okay. So what sort of changes have you seen companies making as they've gone through this process?

Jayne Saywell (09:46):

It's been really fascinating because let's face it with the first, we've done two pilots so far, two cohorts so far, and we've seen some massive growth around that. The people you attract at first are the people who are already interested. If you're looking at your curve there, we're still at the people that are interested mode. So they come along and they talk about these are our values and this is what we do, but it hasn't been formalized in any way. Quite often it's come from a smaller company growing and it's a founder that's coming along to our cohorts and they're talking about, well, this is who we are, but now we're growing. And what the B Corp certification insists to do is sit down and have a conversation about, well, what are our policies? How are we going to approach this? So a lot of the changes we see are around governance made around, does everyone have a contract?

(10:34):

Does that have everything built in that it should have built in? So things like that. And what is also thoroughly encouraged and everyone makes a change is obviously the articles of association about climate action plan.

Ewan Anderson (10:44):

Okay.

Jayne Saywell (10:45):

Yeah. That suits the company that it's for. So we're not asking everyone to get science-based targets. For example, this is, let's look at your, are you a small remote based company? Right. Okay. Do you have a policy so everyone knows how best to minimize their emissions within the environment you're working? So that's always in there. And then we've had some really interesting things that have come out of it, particularly around employee wellbeing and community engagement.

(11:13):

And what's been interesting watching the companies work together is they spark off each other and they pass backwards and forwards. So we've seen some really good connections with local charities happen through this. And we've seen some fantastic new policies being put in place. And also the B Corp world, the people in there are incredibly honest. They will talk about what's worked, what's not. We had someone come along and talk about we tried unlimited holiday and it was a complete disaster and someone got another job while they were working for us. Not everything works, right? No,

Ewan Anderson (11:47):

No.

Jayne Saywell (11:48):

So they find out what worked for them and actually they ended up doing a four-day work week. Really?

Ewan Anderson (11:52):

Right.

Jayne Saywell (11:53):

Yeah. It almost gives you permission to stop and look at these things and start making some changes.

Ewan Anderson (11:59):

I think that's it, isn't it? Sometimes we're so caught up in it all that you just need to take some time and actually having some formal time to do that through this sort of program would give you a bit of a time to just review, reflect, and just think what's actually working for us and what's not. And actually just taking the chance to try things and say, "Do you know what?That is not working." Or flip side, a four-day week is exactly what will work for our team. And

(12:25):

It's interesting. It's trying to find the right balance for your company. I think we mentioned that at the start, but I know a lot of people will be put off by the fact, look, I don't want lots of new policies. I don't want to be. A lot of the time people are using this as a tick box to ensure they can get into some kind of public procurement process or whatever it might be. But actually, if you come in with the right attitude here, you can make a real difference to your company and then to the broader community as well because you mentioned community engagement as part of that. Oh,

Jayne Saywell (12:54):

Massively. The community engagement's a huge part of B Corp and quite a lot of these certifications, to be honest. And when you're looking at community engagement, people tend to. Or smaller companies, you'll sponsor someone who works for your son's football club. There isn't necessarily a thought. And that's fine when you're small because you all know each other and you can have that conversation. How are you going to keep that up as you grow? So it's building in a process and it doesn't need to be that formal. A time once a year when we're all going to sit down and we're going to talk about what is our community? What do they need? What do they want? How can we best support them in a way that we can that isn't going to absolutely cripple us along the way? And just trying to. I'm trying to do it without sweating here, but B Corp's doing incredibly well because they just have their stuff together.

Ewan Anderson (13:46):

I think that's absolutely critical here is that once you spend the time doing this, because everything's always so busy, if you spend some time doing this, things like governance, it gets all your ducks in a row. And then you start to point in the right direction and your community engagement improves and your staff engagement. Because again, from our point of view, staff retention is really critical. You want people to go to companies and stay there because the culture's right. And it'll probably engage you and encourage you to look at your culture and say, "Is this who we want to be as an organization?" And it's asking these questions, not forcing you to, but as part of the process, you probably will ask yourself these questions anyway. And I think it's a good thing for organizations to go through.

Jayne Saywell (14:24):

Oh, it's massively good. So we've got some brilliant stats around attrition, so I'm glad you brought that in. I think B Corp attrition that they did use UGov to do this particular pool, is around 8% compared to 16 to 20% for every other UK SME on average. The attrition is much lower. Now, a lot of that has to do with engagement. So staff engagement is also incredibly high up the agenda for people.

Ewan Anderson (14:49):

And that kind of takes us onto that next question around the finance element of this and finance professionals. And when you're working for an SME, obviously you take on lots of different things, but why is the conversation becoming commercially relevant now? How do you make that commercially relevant, I guess?

Jayne Saywell (15:07):

Well, first of all, the wheels are coming off the bus. I don't know if you've noticed you.

Ewan Anderson (15:13):

Yeah.

Jayne Saywell (15:14):

The risks are becoming. I've been in this space for years and I was shouting into the mist for the first 10 years because it's very, very hard to get people to pay attention to a risk or an opportunity that hasn't manifested yet. Things that need done right now, the fires need fighting right now are obviously coming. So there's an element of that. We are starting to see more storms. We're starting to see increased temperature. We're having to, just from a climate perspective adaptation, there's obviously a lot more social, don't know how to paraphrase this, social. I don't want to say unrest because we're not in the middle of a revolution.

Ewan Anderson (15:48):

It might be coming.

Jayne Saywell (15:51):

More noise as well. And we've got some real issues as the recent reports have come out around youth unemployment as well.

(15:59):

So we're in this shifting marketplace. So the risks and cost of energy at the moment, there's a good one. The supply chain shocks we saw through the war in Ukraine, COVID. So it's now tangible. So there's your first reason why it's commercial from a risk perspective. Then you have the new different regs and legs that are coming in, regulation, legislation, and disclosure for accountants, this is why it's starting to come into our world as well. Disclosure is becoming, we're moving towards mandatory sustainability disclosures. We already have something around carbon emissions, but mandatory wider sustainability disclosures in the UK. Now what that means is that sustainability is moving out of marketing and comms because the rigor around the data required becomes the accountant's problem. And that can be a really interesting move. It's lovely. It's wonderful to see the market matured in that way. But also a lot of this stuff is difficult to measure.

(16:58):

Especially in the social space, it can be incredibly difficult to measure. So you also want to hold onto the storytelling that the comms team are fantastic at doing. So you are having to work much more closely together. But from a compliance perspective and from a business perspective, it is definitely moving into the, it's becoming the accountant's problem.

Ewan Anderson (17:16):

Yeah. Yeah. And I mean, I think just to touch on that, a lot of accountants won't see themselves as leaders of sustainability in the organization. So it's encouraging people to be part of that. I suppose it's everybody's role, but someone somewhere has to get those stats and those figures and inevitably it lands on someone in the accountancy team. Is that right?

Jayne Saywell (17:36):

And that's what accountants are good at. We're good at bringing rigor to the data. We're good at being skeptical. And that's where I think accountants are the key to dealing with greenwashing and social washing and things like that. We will look at a figure and go, right, okay, where did that come from? Let's look at the background from that. And as assurance becomes more and more mandatory for larger companies, absolutely. We have the key skills in place already. Yes, we have to broaden our knowledge. We cannot be experts in every part of this.

Ewan Anderson (18:07):

No, absolutely not. No.

Jayne Saywell (18:08):

No, but we need to understand where we need to bring experts in and who those experts are.

Ewan Anderson (18:13):

And so how do you align that to day-to-day things? I suppose for a lot of people it is, look, sometimes it seems a way up there. We're dealing with something and we're taking these figures, but actually does it have any impact on our day-to-day? How do you bring issues like governance and workforce expectations, climate risk? How do we factor that into day-to-day so that people can see that as part of their regular decision-making process?

Jayne Saywell (18:38):

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's a really good question. And it's a question that doesn't just apply to this. When you're lost in the weeds of just trying to pull a balance, for example, together, you do get lost in the weeds on it, don't you?

Ewan Anderson (18:49):

Yeah.

Jayne Saywell (18:49):

So you've got to be able to stand back. And again, this is what accountants are trained to do. Stand back and think what is decision useful? How can I understand my value chain? Where are my material risks, opportunities and impacts? And really look at it across the board. And bringing sustainability issues into that is absolutely crucial. So if we just look at workforce, for example, employees are looking for purpose. They're looking for wellbeing. They're looking for how do you interact with your community? What is your reputation? You've got reputational risk in there. And the climate side of things, yes, that's becoming more and more regulatory led, but also market-led as well. It's becoming more obvious where the business decisions need to be made in that space. Governance, we've moved from just talking about shareholder returns and compliance. Now we're talking about, all right, okay, how do we make decisions?

(19:42):

How do we do that materiality analysis? How do we bring this in to our decision-making so we're not missing something? Because there's some big opportunities in here as well.

Ewan Anderson (19:53):

Absolutely. And I think there's lots to that. So I suppose if somebody's sitting here listening thinking, right, we need to have a think about this. We need to start where? How do we get involved?

Jayne Saywell (20:05):

I know. It's hard, isn't it? So from a company perspective, if you're a small company, first thing you do is just stick it on your board meeting agenda and you sit down and you have a conversation. Yes, you will go a lot deeper, but you start by saying, right, okay, here is our value chain. Where do we impact people and planet along that? And where do they impact us? And you just do a simple grid and you work out, what am I going to focus on right now because I cannot focus on everything? What is important to me in my industry? And your industry body will be able to help you with that. Another, I mean, if you're at that stage, you're probably not ready for B Corp or evening opening up a B impact assessment. I would take a look at the good business charter, 10 questions completely free.

(20:47):

There's a badge you can get and it'll help you get ready for all this stuff. So that's a nice entry point on your way in. Because we work with some of the bodies on this, is all the accountancy bodies have fantastic training now.

Ewan Anderson (21:02):

Right. Okay.

Jayne Saywell (21:03):

And a lot of it's free.

Ewan Anderson (21:05):

So have those bodies recognize the importance to finance and financial employees that their team, I suppose, needs to take responsibility for this and to take the lead on this maybe?

Jayne Saywell (21:17):

Absolutely. The disclosure standards are coming in. They're just going to have to do it. It's going to be built into the training for accountants going forward. So it's now all built into the CPD as well. So if you're an accountant, go on to whoever your body is, be it CEMA, ICAW, IPAS, and have a look at what's available to you because there's a lot there.

Ewan Anderson (21:37):

Okay. So obviously a lot of this is Edinburgh B Corp 500. So what for you in the next five to 10 years does Enbra look like with companies that are more aligned to this sort of stuff? So

Jayne Saywell (21:50):

First of all, we'd have more B Corps. We've not grown massively. We've hit a huge milestone in Scotland. It's tiny, right? We've hit a hundred B Corps.

Ewan Anderson (21:59):

Really?

Jayne Saywell (22:01):

We managed that last year. And in Edburgh we're up to over 40 now. And that's from almost a standing start. So what would that look like in five to 10 years time? 500 is not a big number in Edinburgh. We've got about 20,000 businesses. What it is, it's a social tipping point. What we are trying to get to is not that everyone's a B Corp. It's that everyone understands what, you can call it ESG, you can call it sustainability, call it B Corp, that they're considering these things, that they're starting to think, "Oh, hang on a minute. All my pals are doing this. How do I get in?" So that's what in five to 10 years time, it just becomes a normal conversation to have.

Ewan Anderson (22:44):

And

Jayne Saywell (22:44):

Everyone's thinking listen, everyone's making an improvement. Now in doing so, we then hopefully hit the Edinburgh city vision that we as a council have come to, which is that we are pioneering, we're fair, we're thriving, we're inclusive. Everything we're trying to do here is aligned to exactly the same outcomes. So B Corps, for example, tend to have a higher turnover growth. They tend to have quite a lot higher turnover growth, higher headcount growth. And so we're not saying it's not here shirts and penniless. We're trying to say, "Look, we want to grow, but we want to do it in a way that brings everyone with us and creates a thriving, environmentally sustainable, socially sustainable city around us." Do

Ewan Anderson (23:31):

You think if somebody's sitting here and maybe their company isn't in this situation right now, but they want to take it to the board? I guess it depends on each company, but there's obviously a moral element to this and then there's a commercial element to this. And I think the two can work together, but sometimes have you found it easier to push the commercial side of things rather than necessarily going down that moral or sustainability message? It's more about, look, as an organization, as you mentioned, our retention will improve and actually our bottom line will improve as well. Is that the best approach for somebody who's sitting listening to this thinking, "I want to do that, but I'm aware my board might not take to this straightaway."

Jayne Saywell (24:12):

And that's just the way end, isn't it? Businesses are made up of people and people generally want things to be better. And then you go into work and you go, "Oh, but also we have to make loads of money." And do you know what? A failing business has no impact.

Ewan Anderson (24:31):

Yeah. Yeah.

Jayne Saywell (24:32):

So the two absolutely have to go hand in hand. Absolutely. So yes, I would go for the commercial angle, but I don't think you have to be these days. I don't think you have to think very hard to be able to provide that commercial angle.

Ewan Anderson (24:44):

Yeah. I mean, a lot of the stats and a lot of the information's there isn't, as you mentioned. And so while there'll be some changes in systems, presumably, some things you need to bring in a lot of that. I suppose that maybe be the other fear. We're going to have to bring in a lot of new systems. We're going to have to track new things. How are we going to be able to do that? Is it going to cost us a lot of money to get all these things in there to track that?

Jayne Saywell (25:06):

Yeah. It's got to be proportionate to your business. If it doesn't, we always say that we do a gap analysis, if this doesn't work for your business, there are other routes. Not everyone is going to be a B Corp. That's back to our ambition is to create change, not to have a bunch of certified B Corps. So that would be lovely. And if you're able to see it as a program that adds value, for example, sometimes people come to us as my own company, Black Sky's Blue. And the first thing they've really engaged with us is when there's been a procurement, a supply chain, or an investor's come to them with an ESG survey and going

(25:47):

To start. You don't want to be in that situation. You want to be able to build that in now, but also do it in a way that's adding value to your business. Don't do it just because if you do it as a tick box, it's going to cost you money and you're going to get nothing out of it. So if that's the approach you're going to take, then start small. Work your way up towards this. Don't go all guns blazing because it does take time and resource to get your ducks in a row. And what I would say is the smaller and earlier you start this stuff and you build it in from scratch, fine. That is so much easier than trying to retrofit onto a massive company that isn't alike. But yeah.

Ewan Anderson (26:26):

Yeah. No, absolutely. I think that's the case, isn't it? It's start early if you can. And if you can't, then take some small steps towards the right thing. So that being the case, if somebody does want to get started, should they come and speak to yourself or speak to the, is it the Chamber of Commerce in Edinburgh? Or how should they get started? Well,

Jayne Saywell (26:43):

Absolutely come and speak to us or the Chamber of Commerce. That's absolutely fine. You can get in touch with us anytime at all. Have a look yourself. Have a look at the B Impact Assessment, set up an account, have a go. Have a look at the Good Business Charter, which has a lot of similar aligned values, but it's much lighter touch. So I would say that's another good place to start. But definitely. And I would follow Enbra B Corp 500 on LinkedIn because when we have new cohorts coming up, which are government funded, which therefore you can attend for free and have support throughout this process, that's where we'll be announcing them. That where they'll be.

Ewan Anderson (27:22):

Brilliant. Well, I will put all those resources in the show notes so people can go and follow the links from there and get in touch with yourself or as you mentioned, the other places to get in touch. So thank you very much for your time today, Jane. That was a really interesting discussion. And yeah, hopefully we'll catch up soon.

Jayne Saywell (27:37):

Brilliant. Thanks very much.

Ewan Anderson (27:44):

Thanks for listening to the Recruitment and Beyond podcast. Hopefully there was plenty of insight for you to take back to your teams. So don't forget to subscribe and never miss an episode. And if you can, leave us a review. We really appreciate all the feedback and support we get. It makes a massive difference.